Licensing and Standards Committee – April 10, 2018 – Part 2 of 2

Licensing and Standards Committee – April 10, 2018 – Part 2 of 2


members of the licensing standards
community please come to committee room we need a quorum thank you members of the licensing Standards
Committee cancers develop maker Gary Johnny’s in the Georgia please come to
the committee room number one we need quorum with members of the licensing and
Standards Committee please report to committee room 1 with members of the
licensing and Standards Committee please report to committee room 1 thank you why are we what do you want to get a dog
first members of the committee please have a seat
we are reconvene in the next deput ants if I can have your attention please
will occur grass Cathy MacDonald Lynn Robinson and Ian Carmichael are the
nests for depth ends and we’ll start with local grass good afternoon ma’am
sorry to keep you waiting and you have three minutes please go
ahead I appreciate the opportunity to speak thank you for letting us continue
I’m from the Yorkie Neighborhood Association is and also a member of
Toronto no is coalition and I would like to offer some suggestions about process
and structure of the new bylaw on the center waterfront we have a very unique
perspective on noise because we attract millions of visitors every year and
resort of the summer cut cut its of the entire GTA and we welcome all the people
along the festivals boating sports events and outdoor concerts and we have
around a dozen outdoor venues for music around the bay
we’ve been described as the canary in the mine shaft by others in town when it
comes to noise and we do have a lot of it and it travels fast and unimpeded
across the water and up the condo towers residence times complain about noise
invading their homes and MLS may send a noise inspector five days later such a
visit is useless of course but we understand MLS is short of money and
staff but one serious flaw in the current noise by law must change you
have to place the owners on the noise makers and not on the residents
right now MLS responds to noise complaints by asking complainants to
keep a noise log for several weeks describing the source of noise adoration
and the loudness and to make this exercise relevant the complainants
submit their noise loss logs to MLS and they must agree to be witnessed at a
court trial to face the noise makers they can even be held liable for legal
costs this is played out in the waterfront with poor results very few
people volunteer to be part of this absurd process instead they’re sold at
condos and moved the noise makers went about their business without fine or
effort to mitigate the noise clearly this burden on residents must end
instead the noise makers should get a visit from the MLS inspectors into in
reasonable time and be asked to control their noise or prove it is within the
limits measuring sound is not rocket science good noise by law models exist
around the world with effective tools such as enforcement officers ticketing
offenders counseling and medication plans and fines that are not just a slap
on the wrist with just three minutes here I can only briefly manage mention
other concerns about the structure of the new noise bylaw keep noise and
health the only the sole content of the noise by long as we had agreed upon in
our working group extensively and it took us hours to come to the conclusion
that business development has no place in the noise bylaw so noise and health
is the content of the noise by law whether welcomed postponement please
revising the new noise pile on I asked that by Q&A Toronto noise coalition and
others in the working group remain engaged in the process thank you ma’am
thanks so much mm-hmm any questions from the DEP tent
not thanks so much representation Cathy
MacDonald is next thank you ma’am and I’m sorry to keep
you waiting I know that you had a yes doctor’s appointment timing is perfect
he’s go ahead okay so my name is Cathy McDonald I’m the co-chair of the
Federation of North Toronto residents Association and a member of the Toronto
Noyes coalition I’ve really simplified the points that I want to make and I’ve
been included a lot more in a letter that I’ve sent in that sort of goes into
more detail about the process at the through the noise working group and my
list of our list of outstanding issues I think many of these are getting covered
and in general we support the new initiatives proposed by a municipal
licensing and services for further work a number of these are ones that we’ve
been pushing for but it’s important to provide some further directions and
specifically in this submission I want to add some proposals for the really
important consultation process that will take place in the next year or so in
particular I want to as of recommend that there the consultation process
include facilitated discussions with all the relevant stakeholders and on the
development of the new bylaw but in particular in developing new and
relevant regulations for leaf blowers to reflect the noise impacts
if she’s raised by a number of people today the staff report seems to really
just disregard they need to deal with leaf blowers saying that garden
operators need them and the total emissions are really low but I don’t
think this is really a responsible response there are ways to develop new
regulations for leaf blowers that can meet the needs of everybody
my ii facilitated consultation needs to be around the development of the new
enforcement system which is going to be a major new program for the city given
that the police are withdrawing and also because of the many current issues of
the present program which is understaffed and underfunded and I think
with better regulations and clearer systems the enforcement program can be
much improved but it’s a big comprehensive study and it has to be
done and finally we need to have facilitated discussions around the
development of mitigation plans for [Music]
construction noise and noise from amplified sound that meets the needs of
both industry and the residents and I think the new york city bylaw shows this
can be done for your information we do have your communication from front rack
and that’s not it as alias names of members of the community Ellie’s
24-point 1.21 I have two situations one on the bit on behalf of Fonterra and one
on behalf of the you do have those submissions saying that we okay that we
the city staff for the consideration thank you so much for presenting any
questions to the evident you note thanks so much
representation Lynn Robinson followed by Ian Carmichael thank you for the
opportunity to speak to you my name is Lynn Robinson and the chair of the
Toronto Island oyster I’ve been on the noise file for some 20
years now trying to maintain a healthy soundscape on the Toronto Waterfront and
I have spent many hours of my life working happily with MLS and partnering
with them to do that I was a member of the noise working group the MLS working
group this last year and I want to support the presentation of the director
of MLS – this committee we support the recommendations in it for more work but
there are a couple of supplements I would like to see made to that report
and I suppose that I’m not I’m not an expert on process but I guess a motion
from one of you good councillors might be helpful to us on page 2 of the report
and I probably lost it it says we will undertake further consultation with
internal and external stakeholders that’s right at the bottom of the page
and my proposal to you is that we continue with the working group that
currently exists I think it’s a very valuable tool that we cannot afford to
lose what we have on that working group are very experienced residents and very
experienced members of industry and if we’re going to coexist in a very dense
City we have to figure things out together it’s not always easy but
absolutely the best solutions are going come out of the people who are on the
ground with this with these noise problems we want to end up with what are
essentially polluting industries music and construction noise polluting moving
toward the idea of being good neighbors and working with residents to find out
how to do that so I think we have a terrific opportunity here to continue
and I ask that you help us do that what happened with the current working group
is we didn’t do our best work we did it we’ve got conflicting interests
obviously so a group like that has to be set up and properly facilitated with
really good professionals so that instead of saying what do you think what
do you think and people arguing you say okay here’s a problem how can we solve
this problem so that everyone’s happy we want to do that the residents want to
continue please help us my second ask which is more complicated
that’s a simple ask the second ask is that to manage noise in the city we need
to broaden the scope looking at the bylaw it’s the last ditch nobody wants
to go to court nobody wants to wait till everybody’s
fighting to manage noise we need to get up front and mitigate educate prevent
dialogue all that upfront stuff and when we were in the working group this year
of course that was not within the scope we couldn’t talk about it please expand
this go thank you so much representation which just Bernstein please go here
thank you through you so are you suggesting to revamp the working group I
don’t know what the right way to do it is I think we need more people on the
working group more stakeholders people who could help with mitigation maybe
economic development and people go it need some thought the reason I’m asking
is there have been nine meetings correct yes and my impression from reading the
report is we’re not any closer to any sort of
solution a little bit listening to the deaf students from both sides actually
it seems apart from yourself it seems like there is no common ground you know
you’re actually the first person that I actually have heard this really behind
this I talked to a few people from the music industry outside the working group
and we started to talk about how to do things I don’t think we’re going to
agree on everything but I think we can agree on some really
useful material thank you any other questions
thank you for participation in Carmichael is it secure Phillip is the
next for the potential over Tanner Lisa sorry Claire Riley and Ron Jenkins
thank you for hearing ok my name is Robert
Tanner I’ve lived and worked in the City of Toronto for over 40 years I am a
lawyer but I’m not getting paid for this so I will be brief the I’m here to
request the committee with respect to direct MLS or request MLS two things
first of all to reconsider its recommendation with respect to the
amendment to the general prohibition at article 5 9 1-2 of the of the of the
Municipal Code and secondly to restore in the next draft to be presented the
wording of that provision to that of the provision which is currently enforced in
the current bylaw that is a very simple provision which reads no person shall
make cause or permit noise or vibration at any time which is likely to disturb
the quiet peace rest enjoyment comfort or convenience of the inhabitants of the
a remarkably clear that of municipal legislation the reason I’m asking that
the that wording be restored and preserved is that the proposed amendment
will take away from residents their existing right to make any effective
complaint in respect of noise disturbance during the daytime and up
until 11 p.m. at night residents will be precluded from supporting such a
complaint with valid evidence such as noise logs and sworn testimony in court
as they can do now this is why this is so according to the new wording in the
proposed bylaw no disturbance during those hours for 9:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m.
will be subject to regulation without decibel readings being made available
whether decibel readings being taken and being presented and available in court
those readings can only be effectively taken and received in evidence by court
in in court from by law control officers residents do not typically own noise
meters and it is highly improbable that their evidence being of a technical
nature but not coming from but coming from a layperson would be admissible in
court if they did residents should not I submit be shut out to the process of
regulating noise disturbances which affect their lives for its part the city
if it’s serious about controlling noise benefits from the evidence that
residents gather and submit to MLS in support of complaints of violations
essentially residents when they do this are motivated by the disturbance of
violations to do the legwork for the city to gather the evidence they won’t
be able to do that anymore in respect of daytime disturbances up
until 11 p.m. if the bylaw is amended as proposed MLS officers FMO officers are
to become the exclusive source of evidence to support such prosecutions
its budget will have to be greatly expanded if there is to be effective
enforcement such funding if it were made will be subject cost-cutting in future
budgets when efficiencies are invariably sought by future administrations and if
such cost-cutting were to occur MLS will not have the resources to gather
evidence to enforce the proposed new bylaw for the citizens right to
gather in submit evidence will have been lost that Avenue will no longer be there
even assuming is sustained and a sufficient funding the likelihood that
the bylaw inspectors will be able to get to a site and record the evidence in a
timely way is not great Thank You mr. thunder questions
councillor Burnside please go here you mentioned that you you prefer the
original or the current bylaw but aren’t laws generally better when they’re
concise and they are concise sighs the existing bylaw is more concise err so
well what a baby crying apply if it’s disturbing my sleep in the middle of the
afternoon III think it improbable that a baby
crying is going to prompt you or likely any neighbour to go to the trouble of
filing a complaint with MLS and pursuing that complaint I think it’s unlikely you
would persuade MLS to exercise this prosecutorial discretion in your favor
but it wouldn’t surprise you if we’ve had complaints about babies crying I it
would actually but if you’re telling me that you do there is a remedy for that
because because you’re by law prosecution Department has a discretion
to choose whether to prosecute or not well and that’s and wouldn’t you say
that that’s part of the one of the one of the issues is what’s noise to you
maybe not noise to a bylaw officer what would you say about someone drilling in
the middle of day building a house or or a leaf blower in the middle of the day
these are our value judgments certainly but people have a right to to raise the
issue to make it the subject of a complaint and your your prosecution’s
department has the discretion to decide whether to pursue that and in a
prosecution and ultimately and this is the way our society is organized if such
a prosecution as brought a judge has the right to weigh the values on each side
and to decide their conviction is warranted all I’m
saying is do not deprive people of the right to make the complaint okay thanks
thank you customer insight any other questions
okay mr. Daniel thank you Lisa Sutter good afternoon ma’am
good afternoon thank you please go okay dear committee members I debated coming
today because I have been disheartened and disillusioned by the noise working
group process and it’s extreme bias towards the music industry who had paid
staff members attend the meetings however I among other residents
dedicated a huge amount of time research and energy as dedicated volunteers
because we are the ones who are ultimately impacted by the results of
any changes to the noise bylaw I’ve always understood Toronto’s noise bylaws
to be a set of regulations to protect the residents my opinion is that the
impact on the quality of life and health of those residents should be the number
one priority of any changes to the bylaw in addition and within its jurisdiction
a municipal bylaw is no different than any other law of the land it should be
enforced with penalties and consequences so that repeat offenders are never
allowed to ignore their responsibilities and their effect on the community so let
me start with this why is there never enough time to do it right the first
time but always enough time to do it over which is what we are in the process
and what is being recommended down so here are my key points I hope you take
them seriously recognition of the priority of a bylaw clear recognition
that the protection of the health and quality of life for all those living
working studying and playing must be the first consideration for a noise bylaw
I’m not going to repeat what the current bylaw states because mr. Tanner just
stated that but it is a critical component because the fundamental part
is no person shall make cause or permit noise or vibration at any time the
second point is the owner should be on the noisemakers to
Gate and minimize noise from their operation this doesn’t happen doesn’t
appear to happen very often with our current noise bylaws and the onus has
been on the residents primarily to prove with endless noise logs that they are
disturbed by these infractions the repeat offenders blatantly ignore the
noise bylaws so let me repeat this because it’s very important the onus
should be on the makers of the noise to mitigate their noise and not on the
residents the third point is the lack of confidence in the process I attended all
except one meeting there were seven coordinators for the nine meetings in
tea as Vanessa Jessica Hamish Carlton mark and back to Vanessa and now we have
somebody new Johanna and an enormous amount of time was spent at the
beginning with three meetings focused on the terms of reference and then we
weren’t in hearing to them at the start of the process we recommended to
disciplined a process for re-engineering a bylaw and insisted on an independent
outside facilitator there was no professional facilitator until the last
meeting and then they did not have the advantage of the history and background
from the previous meetings so had little contacts to properly facilitate the
final workshop not my fourth point is independent and recognized as focused on
the noise committee should be throughout the entire process and we recommended
Charles Shamoon from New York City and dr. Harley Braun shaft and enforcement
is the weakest part of this entire process thank you mister any questions
to the diffident these three members cancer one time yes thank you very much
and thank you for your presentation just by way of your comments about the the
consultation process and the the working group process not being as constructive
as it can be how would you improve that I would hire a professional consultant
who understands how to re-engineer process and because we were never sure
whether we were tweaking the bylaw forming a new bylaw like it was kind of
all over the place whether we were advisors I mean the word noise working
group was a misnomer and is it if there is no ball if there’s no
money and I don’t know if there is or not but there’s no money for the city
through this process to hire a third party facilitator do you think that the
community would have faith in the process moving forward I won’t speak for
the community but I certainly would not have faith in the process you need
people who understand business process re-engineering I’m that’s my background
when you’re redoing a bylaw that’s important as it is to the city you need
people who understand how to do that either rewrite the bylaw or take the
existing one and tweak it and my final question is that is it clear now the X
number of working groups under your belt with the report that is that is an
interim status report that’s before us today is it clear now that this that as
you read it that the city staff intend to write a new bylaw with most likely
mechanisms for increased enforcement and hopefully addressing the I D the
concerns that the working group has I’m not clear because I think parts of it
are going to be rewritten like the general prohibition which I disagree
that they need to leave it in I agree with the gentleman previous to me that
has to come back in other ways we have no protection at all I’m not sure what
parts of the bylaw they’re actually trying to tell me the bylaws a large
bylaw so we didn’t go through it you know section by section the way they did
in New York City and it takes a long time if you’re going to make effective
change to do that process okay thank you very much thank you
is Gus credit Jenny’s correct me if I’m wrong and thank you for being here today
did you say you have no faith in city to be able to come up with this process I
said I recommend an independent facilitator who has the skills to run a
process like this to change a bylaw so we don’t have the knowledge and city
staff is this what you’re saying well it wasn’t evident to me in the
noise working group of the people that attended those meetings that we had the
sound engineering or the acoustical engineering expertise that we needed in
those meetings now you said you were a professional retired that we had worked
in this field I’m a professional consultant yes
so with somebody like yourself be able to step up and help us do this yes there
are people who are certified consultants who understand how to do re-engineer a
process would you be one of those consultants unfortunately I am
restricted in what time I have available I’ve invested an enormous amount of my
put you would be able to do that work I could be able to do that right thank you
very much appreciate it thank you any other questions thank you for the
presentation there Riley followed by Ron Jenkins and Andre Amon
good afternoon hi please go ahead number 2017 yes yep please work here hi
yes Claire Riley I’ve resided in wor 22 for a decade now in the same apartment
building the space is now beside an ongoing Madison group and zyg condos
development demolition started in December 2015 active construction
directly outside my window a mere 12 feet away since two years and four
months now insufferable construction noise this construction development
truly affected quality of life and well-being and a right to enjoy my
living space and there’s no doubt about this and it’s an unfortunate reality
just to let you know this was the peaceful serenity of my space before
they started construction this is now the compound that
looking at through my window face on all right after that these development is a
driveway with a way from my building so to your left
that is my building and you can see that how this envelops one driveway with away
and it’s working from home this makes it very very difficult it has affected my
earning capacity thus my livelihood privacy is
non-existent without the cost of expensive window coverings unable to
open my windows during the day for fresh air because of the success of
construction noise the intolerable rate hoist that they have this is the freight
hoist outside of my window for two years bombardment of noise and assault on the
quality of life and it’s an aluminum empty tin can as you can see the noise
resonates because it’s a little vortex that goes on so it magnifies the noise
there and this was granted by the OMB they gave the Madison group in Zeke
condos cockta blush to build 12 feet away face to face when you look out your
window this is what’s happening so there is no noise litigation mid sorry
mitigation what so ever they are there the noise is deafening lastly it’s a
health hazard it’s a health hazard these are readings that I take took
ninety one point five eighty five point five decibels that’s above the health
hazard regulations that have been set not only by the World Health
Organization but the City of Toronto as well the Health Board so I would like
some legislation to manage the level of construction noise pollution based
and based on the Toronto noise coalitions April 9th 2018 submission in
particular related to new york city’s noise codes installation of sound walls
blankets and screens and to install at least some type of noise barrier thank
you ma’am is would you be kind enough to share
your communication with us have you made a submission already I can
do that I can share yeah that would be very helpful thanks so much
ok our city clerk will get in touch with you
any questions to the Adept end if not thank you Ron Jenkins followed by Andre
Amon Thank You chair metal our CEO and committee members for the attention to
this issue and the opportunity to depute on it I’m Ron Jenkins I’m speaking on
behalf of the group waterfront for all waterfront for all comprises more than
30 organizations and seated civic groups interested in preserving and enhancing
the entire waterfront from east to west and when we speak of new ways what we’re
really talking about in terms of the waterfront is an area with unique
challenges it has an intensive mix of disparate uses residential commercial
cultural educational recreational industrial and and so forth its unique
in that way its unique also that it’s an area where major permanent sources of
noise are already established Music Venues expressway noise airport noise
festivals and so on it’s also unique as an area with some of the city’s quietest
locations the island tommy thompson park the serene beaches
along the bluffs out in the east out in the west it’s you know Colonel Sam Smith
Park and so on and finally it’s unique with a natural resource of Lake Ontario
itself which in noise terms I mean it’s a critical asset it’s what the what
makes the waterfront the waterfront but noise travels particularly well across
water so in that regard it’s an area of particular concern all of those
considerations should inform noise bylaws that are formed and there are a
number of recommendations already in place but I’d like to add that by law
planning considered the unique characteristics of the city’s
neighborhoods and regions when forming noise bylaws and then finally I just
like to point out I think that this consideration by this committee
it’s a committee whose mandate according to the city website is has a primary
focus on consumer safety and protection and given that I think health concerns
relating to noise are our paramount it’s also stated as a committee with a
mandate to monitor which is something a little bit more of a requirement than
simply responding to complaints and and finally it’s a committee with a
requirement of enforcement of standards and in that case – then what we’re
really talking about is noise bylaws that should be respected and applied all
of this is a demanding task of course balancing uses and for that the city
looks to your committee for imagination and inventive solution thank you Thank
You mr. Jenkins any questions thank you for presentation thank you so the last
sir for the DEP attends that were added on today to the leases and Raymond Elgar
caravaggio Brian moon rod in the Spenser Sutherland we’ll start with the and
Raymond and Raymond Elgar Biagio oh I’m sorry H Caravaggio my mistake I’m sorry
about that good afternoon mr. chairman committee
members let me just get my notes out here I’m ed
Caravaggio board member for the National Golf Course Owners Association of Canada
representing approximately 2,500 golf courses throughout Canada through the
Association and I’m here to talk about the bylaw specifically as it relates to
the lower regulation in this matter representing I’m representing the owners
of the courses in the area that would be affected by the related bylaw National
Golf Course Owners Association is in support of the department of licensing
and standards recommendation to leave the current by law as is pending its
further due diligence review we thank and appreciate the ongoing inclusive and
fair manner with which the licensing and standards department is conducting its
due diligence in reviewing this matter we believe the current bylaw strikes an
equitable balance of the interests of all community stakeholders and are
confident it will continue to do so long into the future we believe the current
bylaw through its regulations has been effective in its intended goal
and local course operators have adapted to its regulations with minimum impact
to their perspective business pro formas and more importantly to their customers
experience this while limiting the disruption to the overall enjoyment of
the surrounding residents we believe the current city bylaw is working as
intended and should only be amended if and when there is a mutually acceptable
solution the ng coa on behalf of the local golf course owners strongly urges
this committee to accept staff recommendation on further review in this
matter which we are confident will result in reaffirmation of the current
bylaw until such time as new innovative solutions are developed thank you for
your time Thank You mr. Caravaggio any questions
from the Adept end thank you ancient Brahma rod is not here in the last
deputy entity expensive Sutherland and sir Sutherland so we are done with their
deputations on this item now we will go to questions to staff starting with
visiting members of cancer cancer one time thank you very much my questions
are going to be very short with respect to the process ahead of us can you
clarify that the intention is to is to write a new noise bylaw through the
charity councillor wong-tam the intent is to make improvements and amendments
to the existing noise bylaw one say it’s to write a completely new bylaw but the
goal is to make it an improve bylaw that has clear and clear understanding of the
rules for more consistent enforcement as well as recognizing the
has been not updated since 2002 and the city in the way it functions and people
live and work has changed and we didn’t make those changes to reflect that
okay so recognizing it’s not scrapping it all together but building upon the
pieces that are that need improvement and strengthening so when the community
says is it a new bylaw or not a new bylaw whatever it is moving forward it’s
not going to be the old bylaw that’s correct and then so and then the second
question I have is with respect to the consultative process I think that
there’s been some concerns that perhaps there needs to be a third party
independent facilitator that that can be brought in to help streamline the
communications and to focus with discussions so you can get the the
constructive feedback that you need do you think that’s a helpful suggestion
yes it’s a very complex file with a number of competing interests and
facilitation we could use that to to assist us in our ongoing consultations
if I was to move a motion or as if the chair was to carry forward a motion
specifically directing you to do that to bring in a third party professional
facilitator to help you finish the consultation process you would be
agreeable is that correct we’d be agreeable to it being part of
the process however we do recognize it that that’s a have a financial
implication that we would have to look at further okay so the money was there
you can get it done I would just like to clarify to it I think when we move
forward with the consultation there will be sometimes will be meeting with
individual respective individual stakeholders but perhaps we don’t need
that facilitation process but clearly when we’re bringing together multiple
parties with different viewpoints on this contentious issue as it were then
definitely having that facilitation available would be of great assistance
okay thank you very much that’s very helpful Thank You councillor wantem is
veg Vyse chicory Chinese Thank You chair let me let me understand
from staff the only time that you will need a facilitator is when you’re having
more than two or three parties everything else like when if you’re
meeting one-on-one or two to two to put a pen and paper and drop the the the
bylaw you have staff that can do that yes we do
we have excellent research and policy development staff that facilitate a
number of these meetings look at a number of other jurisdictions and see
what the best practices are well we’re not necessarily business process
re-engineering experts we are we are good at getting feedback and presenting
a a best opinion for you and your peers to make decisions and you will be
reaching out different cities I would say not only North America but also in
Europe to see what they’re doing we have already and we will continue to but
Canadian is we have to do with what’s in I guess within the legislation within
Canadian legislation thank you very much appreciate it thank you any other
questions Dipti Mia never meet you please go here
I thank you three mystery chair in this I’ll call it the great debate perhaps of
noise being in the ears of the beholder do you think we’ve identified a way yet
that the city can help people if you will live in peace on the one hand and
yet have an outdoor patio or a busker or a festival going on within that same
community I don’t think we’re there yet that is our objective and through a
mystery chair and and the case is like I think there’s a couple of a couple of
our first step you said on a street there’s one individual who likes either
their car stereo to blast or their stereo system to blast that wrecks have
it or disturbs a lot of the neighbors do you think we have a solution to deal
with that circumstance yet not yet but it’s something we’re looking at the one
ups are the one offs we need to look at our at what the reoccurring ones are
that’s really what we need to to stop reoccurring noise that’s happening quite
often okay and do you think in terms of some of the machinery that we’ve talked
about lawn mowers the leaf of belief floors is the one that I think it’s most
attention do you think there is a case to be made for differentiating between
say a residential person and a commercial business where you’ve got a
business and you’ve got a truck with five employees that go out and do these
things versus me who just does my own backyard and that’s it through the
charity counselor to beer maker I think on the issue of when we look at leaf
blowers for anything in particular I don’t think there is a differentiation I
think however also we bare a mine and we look at the volume and the impacts that
this issue has had and as was mentioned previously 28 complaints were received
in 2017 that’s 0.25 percent of all noise complaints we receive in it which is an
excess of 12,000 complaints a year that you don’t see the need or the impacts of
that issues having on the community at large would you agree with me that that
number probably though is is underreported people like myself who get
annoyed I don’t pick up the phone and call 3-1-1 or your office and I’m not
sure if I have your cell phone but I you know there are people who just won’t
call you because their neighbor is waking them up at 8 o’clock in the
morning with a leaf blower or there’s a commercial company next door
well view of the fact that we get to know over 12,000 complaints a year on
average on noise complaints and they vary for all sorts of different types of
noise complaints and hours and time of Dave and noise types I don’t think that
that’s necessarily a reason why people don’t call us okay great thank you mr.
chair this really quick cuz we weren’t really
quit thanks so just in in I like to sort of follow
up on councillor to bear makers assertion which you somewhat refuted but
in terms of underreporting would it not be fair to say that every bylaw and
crime and everything else is underreported because there will always
be people who just don’t bother and that’s not unique to leaf blowers it
could be it’s any noise of certain percentage of people complain certain
percentage of people don’t complain no it would be correct thank you
thank you Constance you know on page four the
working group so all the names that are listed on that page are the working
group members what they represent is people who’ve been involved in the
various meetings and you’ll see a number of counselors offices there as well they
would send staff to the odd meeting to see how they were going I doubt that all
of these were present at one meeting but we try to be as open as possible to
allow people to give us feedback okay and now is Toronto Police are they not
part of the consultation and they are not part of this but they are we are
working with them on other matters well because I think when we have noise
complaints like at 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning where there is parties and that
I mean it’s a police issue because then you’ve got some I don’t think Kim our
MLS inspectors would want to go in when you have 5,000 people that are
disrupting a community they want the police with them so should they be not
part of that we do work in partnership with Toronto police and in particular
now if the trauma police transformation task force we are have ongoing dialogue
and meetings with them about enforcement of noise complaints of police when
please should respond to them and when it’s more appropriate for MLS to respond
so we consult with them separately it’s they don’t need to be part of the noise
working group the focus of the noise working group was to look at the current
bylaw and get feedback and input on the current bylaw and in short form
improvements that could be made to the bylaw not about the enforcement of
dealing with okay thank you thank you any other questions and if not I think
that I have a quick question here with regards to the noise working group
actually that the recommendations came to the committee in 2016 I believe and
given the nature of the noise complaints from residents across the city of
Toronto and some stakeholders as well and the community recommended the
creation of a or the noise working group now this is it will continue with a
discussion segment with all of them so I think with respect to the noise working
group we’ve had as identified in our report we had nine meetings with all the
stakeholders and members of the noise working group they’ve provided the
advice and input on the bylaw feedback as well so at this point we are
recommending that we will continue on meeting with the individuals stakeholder
and representative groups yeah but the noise working group and we’re preparing
a finalized summary document of the outcomes of that noise working group in
all the meetings and that would be then shared with the executive director of
miscible Licensing and standards for their consideration as we move forward
with reviewing and amending the new noise bylaw there is another component
to attend that’s the Toronto Public Health because they are looking also the
noise implications as it relates to the health and safety of of our city cause
they now do you know if they have completed and monitoring the whole
aspect in terms of their recommendations and if so when that reports coming
forward o public health staff are here so I’ll defer to
to answer that question sure through the chair that report has been done and it’s
been reported our work going forward is to be on the working group along with
public health Ontario to continue to provide input into the ways we can
implement a plan final noise action management plan will come forward from
Public Health it’s more comprehensive and the bylaw would be within it but it
will be coming forward around the same time so fall of 2019 so to be clear both
reports will come to this committee concurrently or cancel concurrently
would receive the report from health but you certainly can make sure it’s
referred over to you and will be so that is the level of coordination with
fantastic that’s great yeah Minister sure just yeah I just like to clarify we
are working in partnership and we recognize that we both complement each
other’s mandates with respect to enforcing of noise issues and the noise
bylaw so we are not working in isolation we’re very much engaged with each other
on talking through and bring forward our recommendations and with consideration
for both that’s great – thank you okay now we’ll go to speakers visiting
members cancer one time you’re the first one three minutes please thank you very
much mr. chair and I would ask that the the clerk can put a motion on the screen
and hopefully mr. chair you’ll be able to take care of this for me this motion
is simply to add to the to the recommendation already before us with
staff and and that is to ensure that the consultation process can be refined with
independent professional facilitators to make sure that all the stakeholders are
provided with opportunities to provide constructive and focused feedback as
they move towards the formation of a new noise bylaw recognizing that the the
language to clarify when we say new we mean dramatically modified enhanced and
and upgraded and not new from scratch and the reason being mr. mr. chair and
is I want to say that this has been a very large body of work and I think that
staff alluded that the noise by law reform
sorry it hasn’t been the noise by law has not been looked at since 2002 in
2013 I moved a motion to take a look at the noise bylaw and chapter 591 thinking
that perhaps we can strengthen its its effectiveness to get the outcomes that
we’re looking for just because we were I was hearing so many concerns from the
local communities that I serve fast forward it’s now five years moving
on to six years now since the the motion was still was first moved and I know
that this represents this report represents a huge body of work it took a
little while to get it off the ground but here we are and and I think it’s
important to note that members from the the various communities whether it’s
from industry or business and especially for the the residents who represent the
neighborhood associations they’ve been working really hard and I believe in
good faith to make sure that they bring the very best of their lived experience
hopefully to influence an outcome that will that will bring balance and and and
peace to a neighborhood at the appropriate times and I think that based
on what I’ve heard mr. chair is that the community would want to make sure that
there is a third party individual that can help guide that process moving
forward to the final stretch because we are going to get to an outcome by the
third quarter of 2019 where there is a substantially strengthened by law I also
want to thank the the community for all their hard work I recognize that this is
not easy these are not easy conversation and that there has been tension at those
different discussions but I think you know I want to say thank you for all
your contributions because I know you have many other things to do and that
the reason you’re getting involved is is you actually care but by caring you also
are investing your time in our process and want to make sure our process
actually responds to your concerns I also want to not acknowledge that the
Toronto Police Service transformational reform is one of the reasons why we’re
now reporting out at this particular time because there is a
an impact because the police have been very clear that they’re not gonna be
doing the the same type of policing the way they have which means effectively
there’s going to be a downloading of what has been traditional police service
on to the MLS by law enforcement which means that we’re gonna have to think
very carefully on the things that we’re gonna have to ask for in this by law in
order and but also to make sure that we have the adequate enforcement body to go
off and do the work otherwise I think that’s one fun fact thank you is it
three minutes yeah it was a talk thank you very much great any other speakers
yes I am are you speaking customer okay yes so it’s in the interest of time
because we have a lot of the pretense that I’ve been waiting there so I will
just move the motion that’s before before us and on behalf of concern one
time I’ll be moving saying are we saying that we don’t have
staff or able to facilitate this are we saying that is I mean your intention is
that we bring in facilitators when we have large meetings what exactly an
intention of the motion is it’s very clear every time that we’re dealing with
contentious issues and I have deal with it
I don’t know how many dozens of times in my community as well
city staff they know better than anyone of us around this table first of all
most years we have professionals very professional people within our city
staff and when they feel also that we need a professional facilitator from the
outside we do that just make it clear this is only to facilitate meetings this
is not reflecting on the ability of our staff to do the work that is not my
intention at all is and just to add to it one of the questions we have to do
with the budget we do have the budget to deal with it at the moment let me again
put my question this is what we’re saying there is its staff to bring in
external facilitators when we have large contentious meetings that does not
however show that it said tell the staff that they’re not capable of doing the
work that they need to do they answer the question already and that’s in
that’s what exactly you mean right exactly
okay thank you so can we is on the motion all those in favor and on the
report as amended all those in favor unanimously thank you thank you everyone
for coming mr. chairman so what do 24 3 next it’s the next item it’s the payday
loans no but we moved it this morning and they
weren’t here so we said we’re gonna do it after laughter the noise by law
there’s only three there was only three deputies may be here yeah they’re here
yes well it’s one word of caution in terms of fairness is we do have members
of council we have three more items on the next item on the work plan for them
but there are parallels we have 16 deput ends and we still have their payday loan
we have three more babe tents there so in that we do 24 3 first all right there
is a motion – we did move it this morning counselor the beer maker moved
it and it got passed yes so canceled oh yeah yeah Kasahara is she’s moving that
item number three we deal with a merely after the items that we just finished
all those in favor against okay we had three deaf tents and I’m going to call
him is Tony airwing Patrick Moore in Donna Borden I’m just I’m sorry public
and I’ve please let’s stick to the m2 the report to the recommendations of the
report and otherwise we’re going through is not fair to all these people that
have been waiting for all day – for the next item so please work here three
minutes Oh turn this on you found out about them
that yeah apologies my name is Tony Irwin and then with the Canadian
consumer finance Association we represent financial service businesses
that provide payday loans as well as a range of other financial services
including check cashing installment loans wire services bill payments and
foreign exchange our member companies hold lend their licenses for
approximately eight hundred and seventy-one stores and online lending
platforms across Canada CCFA members provide much-needed safe licensed
regulated credit to hardworking Canadians when no one else will last
year some two million Canadians to go to payday loan and an average size of five
hundred dollars for a term of ten days and on average they take it out six
times a year payday loans are used by a wide range of
Canadians from all walks of life nurses firefighters office workers members of
your staff who all are employed and have bank accounts they’re good people in a
bad spot or Wars know the cost of credit is high however many people use the
service who are facing an emergency and have no other options
a single mother holding down two jobs who has a shortfall in income this month
and needs to pay rent or buy groceries for kids or a senior on fixed income who
can’t pay their hydro bills this month for them getting a payday loan one of
our members who treats them with dignity and respect is a better option than
paying Bank NSF fees and reconnection fees CCFA supports fair and balanced
regulation and strong consumer protection measures that are already in
place at the provincial level by the governor of Ontario all of our members
hold provincial licenses and pay an annual licensing fee loan documents are
reviewed and approved by the regulator provincial posters displaying cost of
borrowing and a cost comparison to a credit card must be displayed in our
member stores and they are inspected and audited on a regular basis to ensure
compliance the payday loan industry in Canada is not growing since 2012 the
number of licensed locations in Ontario has dropped from 960 to 789 at the
reduction in a maximum loan fee chargeable from 21 to 15 dollars per
hundred we expect to see more closures as regulation becomes more stringent two
things happen more locations closed and lenders will
have to stop providing credit to those borrowers who
have the lowest credit scores in there for no other options
well I recognize the desire amongst among some to simply shut this industry
down or significantly reduce it I would ask you to consider what happened to
that single mother or pensioner if they can’t access credit from a safe licensed
regulated lender and because they have no other options are forced to go to an
unlicensed unregulated usually online lender instead CCFA would instead
encourage the City of Toronto to focus on encouraging traditional lenders such
as credit unions and others to offer more affordable credit options on a
scale a basis as an alternative thank you
Thank You mr. Lee questions and that’s good Chinese please go ahead this is a
report this morning in the Toronto Star about a payday loan establishment that
was paying people that were working I can’t remember the name were just bring
it up now people were working on a temporary employment agency I’m the
story I didn’t see that this morning’s but I know was in the media or sometimes
someone establishments you know or yours for your association be involved now
that wasn’t one of our member companies and that’s not I’ve never heard of that
kind of activity and certainly it’s not something that our members would kill
who was the paid loan company that was I don’t know the name to be honest
counselor I’m not evading the question I just don’t know but they were they were
provincial a licensed company but they were not a member of our association
but wouldn’t all the provincial e-license companies have to be a member
of your association no it’s not a lady no it’s not mandatory in fact the
speaker after me represents independent payday loan operators it’s not
requirements people belong to our association so let’s talk about that
mother which is the single mother that wants to make ends meet yeah she comes
in to to get a loan from you and she gets $300 and the average is about 500
counselor how much is 500 is about the average 504 dollars you hit with what
was the so the fee is $15 per hundred it’s a fee based product $15 for
hundreds of 15 times five seventy-five bucks that’s correct
I mean if I was to go to a bank and borrow money the
the bank will not charge me more than three or five percent and if that single
mother could go to the bank she would or if the bank went her credit you would
and if you are facilitating the inability to go to the bank by charging
fifteen percent yes that gouging well I guess you have to look at what the
alternative is for that mother who can’t feed her kids what does she it’s
expensive no doubt about it but what’s the alternative if you have nowhere else
to go and you need to fix your car to get to work to get paid or you need to
be able to pay for a medical bill that’s not covered on your benefits if you have
benefits so it’s a lot of work then it will be the loan sharks that the it’s
the end of world we certainly and I didn’t say because of our short in time
that we get more calls in our office now than ever before from people who go
online they call us to find out whether the company is licensed if there aren’t
one of our members because either they’ve been scammed or they think
they’re going to be scammed so either it’s it’s companies who have no
intention of giving you a loan at all and they ask you for all kinds of fees
upfront so we tell people never pay money to get money or it’s a
circumstance where they will get a loan but they’ll get it at far worst rates
the company is located offshore there’s no recourse for law enforcement in
Canada you help the people avoid those loan sharks quote-unquote yes sir
at fifteen percent yes sir thank you sir that’s the first thing
thank you three do you get a lot of defaults we do that there are
significant number of defaults I would say though that our members work with
their customers on extended payment plans working outs you know working out
some sort of arrangement so they can repay that loan that the initial charge
off rate and the default rate are two very different numbers because our
members recognize that people are in bad spots and simply just saying your loans
and default and not being compassionate or trying to help them out
doesn’t serve anybody well it’s not probably unsecured as well so you’re at
a lock if it defaults correct so the question I think you said it was $500
and was an average of 10 days the average term of the loan is about 10
days the person repays it and right so let’s just sort of get people to the
next paycheck or whatever the case is and I would assume that one of the
reasons the rates are perceived as higher RI is that compared
to a bank that usually deals with a larger loan also over a period of time
where they have that upfront administrative costs covered over a
period of time where you still have the same administrative costs we’re adding
it up but you’re only it’s only a 10-day period so it has that that’s right why
it’s one of the reasons it’s reflected in that rate it is the loans are costly
to administer you know their collection costs or technology costs the store of a
structure of paying people they’re all kinds of cost to go into it the other
one too of course is our members are not accessing credit our sorry capital from
banks to lend to their customers so our cost of capital is a lot higher than it
would be at a bank also right you’re not getting the overnight lending rate no no
that’s what you’re saying okay and then the last question so I was a little
unclear though in terms of I know you don’t want government to put your
clients out of business but in terms of this the item before us are what’s your
feeling on the licensing well I think and certainly the speaker after me will
speak more because he represents smaller lenders for which paying a second
licensing fee on top of what the province charges us could well make it
more difficult for them to operate they are small business people it affects my
members too but they’re larger so perhaps it’s not it not as onerous one
thing that I would say and councilor thank you for asking that we’re
concerned about is there’s a recommendation that licenses be
non-transferable so if someone has worked hard created a business invested
in the business and then wants to sell it they’re unable to do so according to
this proposal and I think that’s problematic I don’t think that’s fair
for someone who may want to sell that business to someone else who wants to
operate it but under this proposal they would not be allowed to okay so I got 30
seconds why do you think they made it an untransferable
well I presume because there’s a desire ultimately to reduce the number and if
you can’t transfer the way that’s the endgame I presume so yeah okay thank you
any other questions tip Tamiya Tamiya can please go here
thank you and through you mr. chair and thank you very much for coming in today
and I’m I’m I’ll have to sound wrestling with the whole report and and all the
things that are contained in it and you mentioned the single mother who
might need some help and gets the payday loan and and I’ll say your perspective
is having these payday loan companies actually helps the single mother
absolutely but you make her poorer by going to your members than if she went
to a credit union or a bank if they would extend credit I could agree with
you but they won’t extend her credit so would you agree that again I I would
think that the best way we could help that single mother you gave as an
example if there is some way to keep her out of your stores every would be
everyone would be happy because that that single mother would be better off
financial if she never stepped foot in your stores I think that more options
are always better I think more options are always better and if there I’ve had
this conversation with United Way representatives and across the you know
other parts of the country who have said essentially what you just said but they
went they went further and said but we’re not there today we don’t have to
we live in a world where you guys aren’t needed but you’re but that’s not where
we are maybe a day will come when that’s the case but until that time comes we
need this industry because there are not options for people that are not a range
of options for that single mother that all of us in this room or most of us in
this room could avail ourselves to at any given moment they cannot okay great
thank you Thank You mr. chair thank you any other questions if not a
couple questions don’t you think that these financial institutions are preying
on the most vulnerable people out there and people in need
they pulled the most disadvantage that they cannot literally speaking of in
taking accounting any financial institution I think that what’s common
amongst all people who use our industry as they are they have been told every
been told no everywhere they’ve gone they’ve gone to a bank
Union family and friends in an emergency situation all of whom have said no we
can’t help you and then they’re left with what do they do and they come this
industry because this industry says yes we will help you it is not the int
there’s not in our industry’s interest to loan people money every two weeks for
the whole year to loan them more money than they can repay it wouldn’t be a
good business model if we were to do that so it is in our interest to try to
loan the right amount of money to the person who comes in and amount that’s
sustainable that doesn’t mean we’re perfect I wouldn’t say that we’re
perfect there are there are circumstances that should be improved
upon we do have people in the construction industry for example
undocumented workers and who are doing precarious work at the same time and not
having indecent people that are paying taxes they are working the kids are
going to school but because there is no alternative for them the only option
that they have is to go to this financial financial institutions they
pay them where is if you were on the other side how would you look at this
well you know and it’s an interesting question you raised councilmen I’ve
talked to people who have used the service you know I have gone to stores
I’ve talked to customers and they’ve told me their stories and they have
explained how you know they understood that being in this is not intended to be
a 26-week of the year situation they would come in they would get the loan
they had they had jobs good jobs but you know I think we could all agree Ontario
is an expensive place to live in Toronto is an expensive city to live in and it
is often not enough so they would get alone they were gradually then or or
less thank you i given just a few more seconds with regards to the locations
why is it that these payday locations are very close to let’s say to bingo
halls in places where the most vulnerable people go there and they
become victimized twice not only in terms of
barring going to bingo holes for example but also they have to pay a heavy price
by giving up or selling their paid checking events how do you see that is
there some level of conscience somewhere there actually is I would I
would I guess take issue with the the victimized language I don’t think we’ve
victimized or prey upon people we help people who can’t get it elsewhere and
this is an option for people this isn’t like auto insurance we all
have to have it and we may not like it but we have to have it this is not the
only option I welcome as many options as possible for people our industry locates
where people can get to that’s easy for transportation you do like lots of other
retail this is where they can get fine space there’s all kinds of reasons but
we don’t we don’t look at some of the reasons it some accuse us of doing
that’s not how we decide where our stores are going to be place I was
referring to the locations one after the next within a radius of one kilometer
you have too many my last question is hopefully can answer this quickly sure
I’ll try the it’s been legislated that the page shouldn’t be more than $15 why
is it that there are all these signs all across they paid their locations I
receive $20 and they keep on charging that and I was supposed to be retracted
to January the 1st of this year why is it that we keep on with those signage
out there well you should you talk about the signs that are advertising for rates
which is would be misleading yeah well those are those are that’s obviously
those are those are rates that companies you know promotions that they offer why
are they doing that because the province hasn’t hasn’t said that it can’t happen
anymore I would say that during the last round of review with the provincial
government we recommended that those that that no longer be a per minute to
occur the provincial government did not follow through on that thank you so much
thank you Patrick a moron Omaha next speaker sorry
if I mispronounced your last name to have you here thank you very much yeah
my name is pronounced mowing the lawn thank you that’s okay you got a tree me
I don’t care what you call me just don’t please call me late for dinner
sorry to keep you waiting please go okay three minutes all right thank you my
name is Patrick Mullen and I’m the president of a plaque the independent
payday loan Association of Canada we represent all the little guys unlike mr.
Irwin and my predecessor who represent represents the larger companies the
money Mart’s cash monies based on regulations both provincially as well as
now locally being imposed upon us I’m sure you’ll naturally see a reduction in
license renewal from our membership little guys can’t withstand the
additional licensing fees and the lower rates it’s just impossible larger
companies can because they have scale it’s like banking based on their size
money Martin cash money the big guys are not affected by these punitive
legislative and regulatory changes they have deep pockets and now we’re offering
installment loans which we’re avoiding as it becomes yet another long-term debt
for the same consumer adding to other long-term debt they currently owe to
banks credit card companies further they’re putting them into harm’s way as
we’ve argued our fees are not and should not be looked at as an APR since nobody
I’m aware of ever borrows 26 pay periods per year according to Ontario government
stats on the average consumers will borrow six times annually
having said that installment loans get the consumer into a long-term debt
perhaps never to be repaid which is precisely the point for the lender just
as in the case of Visa and MasterCard the bank’s never want you to repay the
full balance on a monthly basis they have even deeper pockets than the money
Mart’s and cash monies they want their money fully deployed all the time to
maximize revenue if you have a Visa balance for example of $1,500
and you only pay the minimum payment which well over half Ontarians do it
will take 67 months to retire that balance and the interest will be one
thousand one hundred and seventy two dollars and sixty seven cents over those
months having said that with reduced access to payday loans based on fewer
proprietors and locations consumers will always find another way
and in this case they’ll be utilizing as Tony Irwin said online and largely
unregulated lenders from offshore to meet their individual needs if we’re not
here regulated licensed and overseen who knows what’s gonna happen to the
consumer they are going to obviously be in a much worse position than what the
perception of some people is now that they’re in one example for for you to
consider as well is hydro bills if you are in a position where your hydro is
terminated disconnect for non-payment of which 60,000 consumers in Ontario or
were cut off in 2015 it will cost $120 for that disconnection and another 120
dollars to be reconnected for a four hundred dollar bill that would have cost
$80 at $21 on Droid and now it’s going to cost $60 think so
thank you questions and yeah a few questions and we start with the
vice-chair Kyle Jones you represent the independent individuals correct I guess
the same question of your pretty face person spoke before you he was a story
in the Toronto Star are any of those independent individuals the ones that
the the factory’s using to pay he had their workers I’m not aware of that
article in the Toronto Star I was here at 8 o’clock in the morning I have not
read the Toronto Star today all right your organization’s be charged 15% now
$100 we charge $15 per hundred borrowed and that’s for how many weeks largely
it’s a biweekly loan some about 30% of our customers are paid monthly so if
that was to be put bi-weekly at the hundred dollars you ended up making
three hundred and ninety percent for over a year if in fact someone was
to borrow 26 pay periods per year no but that wouldn’t be dollars will generate
when you keep putting it out there will generate 300 90% circling different Wars
correct thank you so what’s the difference between you
folks being legitimate and a loan shark I don’t think the loan shark would
charge three hundred ninety percent per year that’s the only difference that
first of all first of all first of all we do not have customers that are in any
way intimidated or are forced to pay anything other than what our stated
rates are and as I stated clearly before the other everyone from utilities to
visa rates you can also ask why visa is 23% when is it Canada rate is visa
twenty three percent per year not three hundred ninety percent correct correct
and they don’t want you to pay it off you know I was reading a story CNN and
this was meant Amanpour and Greed’s farmer sells wife to pay debts in ruler
india that says to me a lot thank you thank you is concert Burnside next thank
you through you I think we heard from mr. Irwin or somewhere the number of
payday loan operators actually decreased yes and I believe that was before any
sort of government regulation it’s just how business is gone I know since the
interior government reduced our rates to $18 as of January 1st 2017 and then $15
per hundred as of January 1st 2018 the largely the independence in our
Association have turned in their licenses or not renewed or faded away
okay so you would so and that number quote me if I’m wrong somewhere from 900
to 700 give or take somewhere in that area about 20 percent yep somewhere
around 20 percent okay so I’m a pretty simple person but if the
the rates have gone down that you’re able to charge and albeit they seem they
are high there’s no question about that but if they’ve gone down and operators
have gone out of business this idea of gouging might be a little
bit hyperbolic I would tend to agree with that
we do not gouge thank you thank you any other questions
if not I do have a question and you did mention that these payday locations in
loans usually are no more than five or six times a year
mm-hmm so my question to you is and I know these from people that they had
complained directly to my office and I seen them undocumented workers and
automated workers that that are within the construction industry that they have
no other place to go because they are undocumented they don’t have the legal
documents to open a checking I’m sorry here I’m talking about undocumented
workers that they don’t have the paperwork yes to open a checking account
with a major financial institution so these undocumented workers literally
speaking for example I’ll give you a location st. Clair in non-western role
one of them they go there for every single pay check that they have in them
that means 26 times a year so the so is how do you explain that where is the
rationale to your comment so I I’m heartily casinos Sierra if please so I
heard I think I understand what you were asking me but so you’re saying that
undocumented workers would receive a page that example yes and they would go
to a payday loan outlet and they would cash this check that they get because
they can no nowhere that’s a to I don’t know some sort of bond with that because
they don’t have a bank account is in my father that’s right so that’s a
different product that’s called our check cashing product
we also cash checks so that we do 42.9% so if you have a $1,000 check it’s gonna
cost you twenty nine bucks twenty nine dollars okay and if you have a hundred
dollar check it’s gonna cost you two dollars and ninety cents now actually
check now if you lend them in advance and then they have to pay 15 dollars for
every hundred dollars for a loan yes that is for an extended period of time
for example the banks will hold pay checks
no no I I do get it right I do get it like I know what I’m talking about
from the perspective what I’m trying to get at is to the three hundred to the
three hundred ninety percent interest literally speaking that most of these
people are paying but somehow it’s being justified I’m trying to understand so
that’s three hundred ninety percent no one borrows twenty six times a year if
you have a paycheck that I cannot show you hundred percent and I’ll be speaking
at City Council on that thank you thank you for representation thank you don’t
have all day Donna Borden oh great
I left I’ve given you okay that’s okay okay great so you’ve got three minutes
please go ahead my name is Donna Borden I’m an acorn member and co-chair of the
short chapter thank you for letting us speak to you today about this very
important matter we were here to support the license sins and the lysine and
limit of the payday lenders in Toronto a coin has been working on this issue
since 2004 to regulate and to find alternatives to payday lenders this is
why acorn is calling for fair banking and for an anti predatory lending
strategy acorn is calling for all levels of government to step up and do
something so we have our our list of our platform here infinim City we’re asking
for the city of course to do the lending for the licensing and the risk so that
we can restrict and also provide them to support to the other levels of
government for for alternatives we’re also asking for the city to help us and
just to to reach out to the provincial government for to extend the loan the
loan payments from 42 to 62 days to ban any rollover loans they have a rollover
loans now it’s there is a regulations for but it’s not it’s not working to
create protection for installment loans and rent to owns and title loans and to
support the creation of alternative and low income products and for the federal
government to mandate the banks to provide low-interest credit mandate the
banks to provide low-interest overdraft protection mandate the banks to provide
no holds on cheques to lower the NSF fees from forty five to ten to create
again alternative lenders such as postal banking or maybe credit credit unions
and again we’re working on a creating a national anti predatory lending strategy
into a real-time database both for provincial and the
federal government that will stop the rollover loans and to amend the Criminal
Code from 60% to 30% here’s to summon and we’re asking the
city if they could support this and to reach out to the federal government in
the provincial government and to support this and again we’re here to support
your licensing and the restrictions in the licensing of the number of payday
lenders thank you Thank You mr. odden and we have your
communications when the questions from visiting members answer one time please
okay yes thank you very much I wanted to just ask questions to clarify the the
position of 15 I think it’s 15 percent $15 $15 for every $100 world there was
some numbers bantered around that that is that it really equals 15 percent but
but that’s over one week period you have calculated somewhat differently because
calculated to we’ve had various financial people who study this it is up
to over 400 percent it works out to be that because it’s like short-term loans
are at $15 per 100 yeah so it’s so so it was misleading somewhat when when it was
suggested that for every $100 borrowed and $15 repaid that really it’s 15
percent loan it’s closer to a 400 percent yes yes right so when there is
an equation of the the credit card bills being perhaps charged at 22 or 23
percent annually there we’re now comparing a 400% loan to a 22 percent
loan on your credit card correct this annually fruits its yearly yeah so it’s
like yeah just so it’s it’s different it’s very yeah it’s probably different
the way they calculate it and and thank you that’s that’s helpful to clarify and
and also the the concerns around you know why does it seem to be a why is
there a clustering effect with the payday lenders why do we see perhaps ten
on one block and in some neighborhoods for example I represent Rosedale I can’t
find a payday loan lender we’re but if I go down to my communities
along Yonge Street just south of Bloor I see all of a sudden you know probably 15
of them and a 2-block or three block radius why do they why do they come and
cluster together well we think well there are reasons of
course they do go to the areas that have the lower income but we also find it
because there is there was bands placed on the rollover loans that they can’t
roll over one loan and like if you owe money you say – money Mart for instance
and you go back in a two week and you can’t pay them off they’re not allowed
to roll it over into a new loan which they were doing it before which included
an additional fees so now what they can do is they can send you across the
street now I know it Yonge and Bloor they have to money Mars there’s one
that’s open 24 hours and why it needs to be able to 24 hours I don’t know just
one across the street they can just send them across the street because their
systems aren’t integrated that’s why we’re asking for the database so they
can just say will you go across the street and borrow the money from them
and then pay us off so then they’re just and then still additional fees you’re
just rolling it over into a different company and so do you think that’s part
of the business model the payday lenders is to co-locate in in in small
geographical areas – to lend out a little bit of money at very high
interest rates but then to send you across the street so that so that you
see that they spread out the risk number one but also the fact that you’re
constantly bouncing from location to location and I well I think – it’s it’s
it’s they pick an area where there is other payday lenders because they know
that if they don’t get it from one then somebody else will just go across the
street if their desk that was less stupidness question thank you any other
questions depth immediately please great thank you
mr. chair and thank you very much for coming in today I’m gonna just add up
your your point plan here it’s two four six eight and twelve you’ve got about 14
recommendations for action at both the city undergoing federal levels of
government are you suggesting that the payday loan companies shouldn’t exist
because this seems to me that you’re making recommendations on how to make
them function better if I can use that word or
error now what we’re doing is because we know with our members because there we
have several members that are underbanked like like gentleman was
saying that there’s people who can’t go to banks so we know that there they need
to use this service because there’s no alternative there’s nowhere else they
can go to there’s no credit unions there’s no there’s no banks they can’t
go to borrow this money so we know we don’t want you to completely eliminate
them at this point because we know that our like members still need it but we
would like to provide alternatives and eventually just slowly start you know
but we think that being stricter on them and providing more licensing and
databases and that type of thing will actually help to provide so people are
getting in this cycle of debt would they’re just we renewing over and over
and over again and do you think if one of your recommendations for the federal
government but we’re all I’m lumping us all together is government isn’t ideas
such as postal banking yes and I assumed there’s a postal bank probably in every
Shoppers Drug Mart there is invented yeah so if I’m gonna call it a better or
Fair or lower interest regime was created through the postal banking then
that might actually eliminate the money Mart’s of the world well the good thing
about what we found about posted banking is there’s a post office everywhere even
the small towns have them but some small towns don’t have banks but they have
pity lenders so people are going to the amount of necessity they have no other
choice so if they’re if they had postal banking then they have the option to go
to the post office and do their banking there and cash their checks then to pay
and I know the gentleman saying it’s $29 for a thousand dollars but still $29 if
you don’t have a lot of money that can help buy bread and milk and you know so
yeah so it’s that’s why we were suggesting the postal banking okay great
and why do you think a corporation like money Mart some of the other companies
can actually make a profit locating at Yonge and Bloor and scattered all over
the place and it’s almost every plaza in Scarborough has payday loan company why
do you think they can make money with their little offices which I hardly ever
see anybody in with their low volumes why do you think they can make
money but a bank can’t do the same thing or a credit union can’t do the same well
I think the banks could do the same thing they just for some reason don’t
want to focus on they feel it’s a big risk the bank’s a lot of the bank’s
invested in a lot of these companies to what we found but they just feel like
they they have to charge they don’t want to take the risk I think the banks don’t
want to take the risk and they don’t want to provide the services I think
they can they’re just chose not to okay great thank you thank you any other
questions if not thanks so much and we are done
with the deputations now we’ll go to questions to staff questions to staff in
the interest of time okay that’s great speakers customer scary face yeah thank
you very much I want to just thank staff for a further work so far and I want to
also thank and acknowledge the leadership of councilor Annunziata who I
recognize has moved multiple motions over a grand stretch of time and that
goes into years at this point in time trying to get in front of this issue but
also knowing that there are limitations around jurisdiction of who actually has
control over this particular sector and and I never I know that it’s not been
necessarily easy which is why it’s taken so long but I do want to acknowledge
that we’ve reached a milestone at the very least with this particular report
and hopefully with the next phase of work to come because in the communities
that I represent oftentimes when people think of Toronto Central Rosedale they
think of Rosedale or they think of the wealthy parts of Yorkville but I also
represent communities that have we have one of the poorest postal codes in the
entire city in the downtown East and and much of the commercial activity that I’m
now seeing along Yonge Street has been somewhat discouraging and and what we’ve
noticed is that there’s been a dramatic increase in in criminal activity at the
same time as we’re seeing the payday lenders come into our
neighborhood as well as the pawnshops and and it is not it is not gone
unnoticed in our neighborhood so I do think that they’re required there is a
requirement for for more a clearer Regiment of regulations but also what we
are looking at is the systemic issues of people who are precarious who are
low-wage who oftentimes are underbanked which is why they’re in this situation
and the last thing that we need to do to them is make them pay more and and then
the average citizen and and also to confine them further into this spin
cycle of poverty which is grossly unfair so they do need greater consumer
protection and thank you absolutely absolutely thank you cuz I want time
the next speaker is concerned Ciara you can’t learn so now both of them are
synchronized I just did it okay let me start for you again thank
you so move the recommendations in the staff
report but I also have a motion I’m not going to read it all out to you but it
actually just in the in the the briefing note that we receive from acorn so it’s
it’s actually the the recommendations that were moved by acorn so that’s all
incorporated in in my motion so I’m not going to read it out so members you will
recall a couple years ago that councilor counts a long time it’s it’s in the
brief he note that you have here that’s what it is
council want am and I put forward a motion and counsel it was carried
unanimously on the issues that we were having with payday loans and maybe it
was longer than that we’ve had numerous meetings with I’ve had community
meetings and we’ve had our MP and our MPP that attended the meetings as well
so I know that I speak behalf of my constituents including the
consumers now the the issue the issue with the payday loans I know in my board
maybe other members of council don’t have that issue but I have approximate
20 or more in my ward and they’re all within a block a lot of them in my
opinion are nothing but loan sharks they they they they definitely a prey on the
poor some of them in my ward as well they sell buy and sell gold which is
also pawnshop I I had my house broken into a few years ago and the first thing
the police officer said to me is go to your local payday loan they probably
have your jewelry so in these areas there’s really released problems in my
community Myra my constituents they have been
complaining about the number of payday loans that we have in the community with
the dollar stores and you know it it they they open up in areas where it’s
the poorest because they feel that the the business is there they don’t have a
choice so they’re going to go to the to these establishments and I know I know
that the the people the consumers that are using and I’ve spoken to them the
ones in my ward they they don’t support they support what we’re doing they
supported acorn represents them and last year I made a deputation to Queens Park
on behalf of the city on behalf of the city manager to ask the province to move
regular to move regulation and I did speak on behalf of the city and I’m very
pleased that the province actually listened to us because they moved a
recommendation that the City of Toronto has had requested so and just last week
and one of the payday loans in my ward there was a shooting a woman was shot
they they went in to rob the payday loan for $300 somebody was shot this is
what’s happening in the community and we need to be serious and we need to be
aggressive and zero tolerance thank you questions to the movie you funky
customers saying thanks so you mentioned you went to two queens
parks want clarification where any of your requests of Queens Park a year ago
in here or all these are all these new requests I made a Queen’s Park where
there were the recommendations that that’s in the staff report
okay so Queens Park but to limit but I’m paying this this is all news to try them
what I’m getting at well this is just requesting the province in the federal
government but if you look on the second page as far as limiting the number of
payday loans in the city that was part of my okay yeah which is being done okay
and sorry and then your first point the City Council’s support the creation of
alternative low-interest loan products is that a general statement that’s
followed up with concrete action in two and three yes so it’s not the city
actually doing is anything it’s actually asking the province and the federal
government yes okay any other questions for the movie all speakers speakers say
construction is pleased okay three minutes Thank You chair chair I’m gonna
read you I’m gonna read an article appeared in CNN and it reads as follows
this is in India the cattle slowly dragged the old-fashioned flowers the
bone thin farmer walks behind encouraging them to move faster with a
series of yelps in the scene from all of times but still the way many farmers
operating in rural or India where the harvest orphans determined feast or
famine the region is called wonder hunt spanning the two northern India States a
would utter Pradesh and mind for this it’s here that drought debt and
desperation have pushed people to its to survive the bad year some farmers say
they turn to the Pusha wallah in before the rich man who lends money mr. speaker
mr. chair and continues farmers say the loans from these are unofficial lenders
usually come with very high interest when two interest mounts up lenders
demand payment some farmers worked as bonded laborers for a lifetime to pay
off their debts others here they say because of the years of little rain and
bad harvests they are forced to give moneylenders whatever they ask for
sometimes that includes their wife’s we got blenders and they prefer confess
that they charged close to three hundred and ninety percent per year nowhere else
in any other industry do you have that kind of a turnover this is certainly
borderline what it’s called in India the paisa wala chair and colleagues Alta
this needs to be regulated I’m supporting cost Rosie anis motions I
think that we need to bring this industry into constraint I think this
industry needs to understand that they cannot charge the vulnerable three
hundred ninety percent stores are not open at the bridal wood path stores are
not open at Forest Hill stores are not opened in areas where there’s a fluency
stores are open in areas where people are poor they prey on the poor they
gouge them they hit them and instead of help giving them a hand-up they end up
draining whatever they have and they’re driving them into bankruptcies so I will
say that it’s about time that we stand up to the pasha wallah the rich men who
lends money and say to them enough is enough
and we got to make sure that the vulnerable and the people that are
risked we protect them having lender stores across the street from each other
and saying well go get from him money and come and pay me back it’s like
robbing Paul de Pape Peter enough is enough
I think we heard enough stories I think a corn certainly brought this story
attention and I’ll certainly be supporting Francis as a councillor Nancy
Adams motion and other ones that looks after this Richmond thank you thank you
any other speakers deputy mayor yeah Debra mica please go ahead
Thank You mr. chair I’d like to thank councilman zyada and the corn for
putting before us a set of recommendations that I think is very
very good I’ve wrestled you know with this issue about the payday loans
because they’re all over my ward I’m Scarborough center it’s a working-class
neighborhood there you know like Shoppers Drug Mart I don’t know if
they’re in every single Plaza in my ward but they’re almost there and I don’t
think in the end people really benefit by going into them but I’ve listened to
all the deputies and I’d like to thank all the deputies for coming because I
think the industry has said to us well if it’s if it’s not gonna be us it’s
gonna be somebody else and I have to think you know what I I think they have
a point if not them who I think these recommendations at acorn councillor
Annunziata have put forward might help answer that question
acorn who has a stellar reputation for advocating for lower income communities
actually said to us we don’t want to put them out of business we don’t want you
to ban them we want better regulation and they may debate for hours back and
forth on what those regulations should be but I think they’re here we can’t
I don’t think banned them because they’re allowed prevented with through
provincial legislation so I support the staff recommendations to cap them where
they are now to go and do more research and hopefully come out in a way that how
we address poverty in this city is going to be a big challenge my preference
would be that a single mother as the example that was given by one of our
deputies that the single mother never has to go into that
payday loan because she can go to a post-office and do banking or she can go
to a local bank and there’s other mechanisms for her or maybe through our
food banks or through charities or through the United Way maybe through our
social services but there is a reality out there that people are walking into
these companies in my ward and using them every single week of the year so if
if our recommendations help reduce that cost to people because I think those
people should be able to go to other institutions and get more reasonable
interest rates but for whatever reason as the acorn rep said maybe banks just
choose not to I’m surprised because it seems like it’s
very profitable so I don’t have all the solutions on how to end poverty in the
City of Toronto I don’t have all the solutions on how to eliminate payday
payday loan companies but these recommendations I think are allowing us
which is a very small government dealing with a very big problem to play the role
that we think we should play and try to cap them today study them and come back
I guess next year in 2019 whoever is on council and try to wit wrestle with this
some more and again I’d like to thank councilor Nunziata for her work on this
item going to the provincial government and getting some better legislation
passed thank you Thank You deputy mayor and your speakers if not I’m just gonna
say a few words yes and let’s take the I think the
deputies and especially acorn for coming down and to speak something that’s
extremely important to all of us and to present as a whole I won’t think city
staff for this comprehensive report and yes I won’t think councillor transoms
here and for bringing forward this to the forefront and actually through a
notice of motion at City Council back in 2010 emotion came forward and ever since
and we’ve been trying to to make sure that health recommendations were part of
there working plan and we are going to deal
with during this time of cancer so I’m glad that we are dealing with that at
the moment now one of my concerns is with them with his payday locations I do
have a number within an area that’s a neighborhood improvement area and in
that literally breaks my heart when I see people lining up and and the way I
see it that’s a real crime the worse shark shark learning ever seen these
financial institutions and in my opinion they do prey on the most vulnerable in
society on the poor the most disadvantaged those that don’t have
another place to go but just to go and literally beg in sale the next couple of
weeks and taking away their food from their own kids they prey on those that
they cannot open a checking account somewhere else because they are either
undocumented workers that they don’t have the paperwork that’s required to
open those accounts and so because of some restrictions within the immigration
and regulations they can get a trade so that’s a problem that the way I’ve been
actually I have heard loud and clear from constituents and people who are
being victimized not only once one from unscrupulous employers and the second
with these institutions if this is not highway robbery that somehow having
rubber stamp by existing regulations for the life of me I don’t know what it is
is when you make the calculations it’s very easy to to pull it all day the
whole thing into the equation and you at the end you see that there is a 390
percent increase or that’s how much people are paying
literally speaking throughout the year that’s something that leaves a lot to be
desired so yes these a good discussion that’s
taking place and hopefully that’s going to create better regulations that are
going to be more transparent more fair and easy to understand so to give a real
chance to people who really need instead of couching them so I will support the
recommendations problem concerns here and I will be holding deciding for
debate at City Council because I do have all the recommendations that I will pull
forward because under zero tronto Act the city has the devotion in terms of
restricting the number of locations within the city April well as well so
I’m just letting you know that I would be holding this item for the waited City
Council thank you so we have there’s one
motion from Council on Sierra display that one recorded vote on this one
a speaker on Sierra a councillors Palacio and kuri-chan SD Burman in
Versailles unanimous thank you and now we have to adopt the item as amended so
record as well we call it Castro no Sierra Palacio and
carry Johnny’s development care and Burnside unanimous thank you
so we have the next item that’s before us
is the world plan review of chapter 545 licensing body repair laws and holistic
centers and we have a lengthy list of speakers here and we’ll start with I’m
going to be calling in batches of for Tim LaBrie nose Elaine Lam
Barbra goes Agassi and Breanna graves and we’ll start with Timlin breena’s
good afternoon miss membranous thank you for waiting and for being patient and
you have three minutes please go ahead mister for anything was quite
interesting today I wanted to start by talking about the staff report that’s
before you and I wanted to welcome he calls himself the interim deputy city
manager I would like to affirm as they the deputy manager mr. Lu D Geronimo and
talked briefly with him and mr. grant earlier both the possibility putting an
interim Control bylaw which pertains to as a better means of being able to
address this particular issue brought some more comprehensive report it refers
specifically to land use and Zoning but it would require your committee to come
back with a joint meeting of the planning and transportation not sorry
planning a growth management committee and and this committee as well so it is
possible to do that if in fact you want to get some more teeth in terms of an
omnibus review the the comprehensive review that the staff report talks about
there’s a few recommendations that I have is the vice-chair had said before
earlier provide some recommendations to staff so the first is that the currently
by law the body by bylaw talks about the certificate or a form that’s applied for
a health check a medical check but it’s not
acquired from more than once every three years the the wording talks about may
not be may may may this it should be mandatory should be made as a yearly
submission on a health check we’ve got the reason for licensing to mr. D
Geronimo is there’s three reasons why business occupation or trade can be
licensed one is consumer protection and the other is health and safety so you’re
talking about consumer protection here in the holistic s– it’s there’s no
there’s no even mention of it the other section that pertains to the the body
rub parlors it says that you do have the medical officer of health you do have
the authority to do that but again under the list is it’s non-existent so I
believe that mr. de Geronimo can direct the medical officer of health to come up
with maybe a thresholds what would constitute what be called communicable
diseases STDs and for the interests of Public Safety that’s one of the
suggestions that the staff could look at the second is that currently the way
that the wording is is that they’re not supposed to be equipped to interfere
with enforcement but we’ve heard from mr. grant and Miss cook that this is a
significant problem in the holistic centers its non-existent so it’s the
suggestion there to duplicate those to help the the staff give them the tools
that they need to do another thing I spoke to mr. grant earlier about was
signaling devices a panic alert systems that are needed within the individual
cubicles another idea to ensure that the attendants can get some now the current
of regarding for outdoor signs there are some requirements to talk about that
specifically the outdoor sign that should be for body Robb’s I’ll just wrap
up quickly is that the advertisement should include the business license
number on the sign so in summary mr. chair and the last one is that a
signaling device or panic alert system be considered by staff to be required
for individuals service cubicles for safety that the Bobby body rubs be have
to give an application for certificate so every last two were on the board is
be possible to share this information or your submission with any members of the
committee yeah you can do you want to I mean I
have summarized it in the end I mean this we look into it so if declare we’ll
just come talk to you okay thank you questions to the depth end okay thank
you Linda LAN is the news speaker thank you
mr. Lau for waiting is being a long day and I don’t understand that you’ve been
waiting patiently for most of the day so please go ahead you have three minutes
okay thank you very much I think this is a very very important easel even those
that report is recommend the review of the body wrap and holistic standard that
we are welcome but the purpose of the reviewing is very problematic because
the purpose of the reviewing is to increase the law enforcement but what
are we concern is the abuse of the bylaw emphasis so that we are from the
coalition of like against by law enforcement so that we are like working
with different human rights organization and we are working with like different
and legal clinic about this easel so and I think this is very important for the
committee to see how the bylaw officers to be accountable and stop any kind of
human rights violation misconduct when they do the investigation especially in
holistic Center and bodyrock Paulo and the second thing is just I said so that
the review of the pilot and increase the safety and health and also the
public safety instead of focus on how to increase the problematic enforcement and
the other thing is one of the proposal is they would like the committee today
to pass the recommendation about prohibited the new member from five pH a
to obtain the new license so that I would go to the porn so here’s some of
the harassment so that happened in massage parlor so including holistic
center or whatever palate so that for example the officer will ask the girl to
take off the clothes to check their underwear to see whether their clothes
is professional so and also they will check like and their ID and a lot of
racial profiling because majority of the people in holistic center are racialized
Asian so and the target of this population is also very problematic and
we also find that like when there is a lot of concern about trafficking right
but we see actually by law officers using anti trafficking initiative to
conduct a harassment so that is a breaking the relationship and Trust to
the law enforcement so that not only trafficking but when they have robbed or
rape or they have other associate not able to seek help and in the research
actually 33 percent of the worker they have been harassed by or have
experienced different kind of human rights violation from the law
enforcement and he also is the statistic so the Star report is like say there is
a huge increase of the bylaw violation of the like holistic center but this is
the statistic why there is so many increase of the like persecution is
because they have increased the number for more than like three hundred times
since 2013 2016 there is only 410 holistic Center but you see the like
holistic petition that they are being investigated more than 2500 time and
they also talked about the holistic center they are the the ph8 they are
have high percentage of the people preached by law but you can see because
majority that income is learn from that so that is an and so that we really hope
that and we have questions from Emerson and advice chocolate Chinese and then
consequence I’d thank you I won during your presentation said human rights
abuses by the bylaw officers know we’re in here though coalition against abuse
by bylaw enforcement I didn’t see anything here about asking us to do
stuff about human trafficking asking us to take a look at the abuse that these
women or men face at the hands of the people that bring them illegally into
Canada withhold their passports yes I think this is as a human rights
activist and I think we are also working with a lot of human rights legal clinic
so we are concern about this issue but you see that is the illusion motives
like because butterfly Saint Stephen Community House and holistic petitioner
Alliance has outreach more than 1000 people in the massage parlor actually
why we need the bylaw because the violence many women that work in massage
parlors through the chair it would be here on human trafficking how many was a
percentage that you’re gonna have contact the research about that to us
about labor exploitation and none of them have happened like experienced we
are working closely with the like community and I think that is the me
repeat my question through the chair and please if you don’t have a number don’t
give me a number okay what’s the percentage of
individuals that work at these holistic organizations that are under pressure
and are here in Canada under human trafficking what’s the percentage I
think for human trafficking so that massage fella we have contact the
research and none of them is being traffic so in in the massage Allah we
are rich in understand this none of the individuals that work in these holistic
so-called massage parlors and I have to tell you I got 10% of them between
Sheppard and Kennedy two steals in Kennedy in my ward there’s about 40 of
them yeah none of these women are here illegally and are forced into this
particular trade this is what you’re telling me
yes I think that is what is the purpose of the bylaw is the people can legal
question is my sorry I’m gonna try to badger you because you’re involved in
the field and you’ve done a little work none of these women that are working in
these operations are here under conditions that one will call human
trafficking is this what you’re telling me yes so they may experience the
exploitation they may experience the like robbed or robbery or like the
appeals from the law enforcement because we just finished our research recently
so that is our like funding and I think what is the easel is because the law
enforcement is so much excessive and violence so that make the people more
underground that people are not able to work in massage parlor when I first I
wish I found that people not have document can work but now the people I
work more like underground I think that is also that like thank you very much
Thank You councillor Burnside she did with us you said you did a survey about
women working Chinese there is a communication here with all that
information from Islam and that’s a question LS twenty four point two point
seven okay kasa question is I mean Burnside he’s
working I know it’s easy to confuse us no not at all let me understand this
just for clarification are you concerned about human trafficking in the industry
or not concerned I think human trafficking is one of the easel violence
facing by the second you it is a concern it’s our concern
okay you’re concerned regress okay I noticed the next speaker on the list is
from the Canadian Center to end human trafficking have you spoken to her no
okay there was a you had a slide there where
you say oh there it is the number of prosecutions has gone up and that your I
believe you said or your contention is the number of
prosecution the violations that is have gone up because the number of senders
have gone up I think that correct increase the other investigation and
it’s because of the – in friction so that you see that is the actual charge
what the church is like the small scratch in the massage bed they got a
ticket so that like the like that is what happened why the like the number of
prosecution is increased because the excessive abusive by law enforcement in
the massage parlor so that makes a lot of people get charged and there is the
like the name card so that when they don’t have the license number in the
name cut they also get charged you see the number so that is it’s not like like
so then I guess your summation but it’s mainly they got charge of this like
minor violation and I think I got asked a lot of questions you’re running some
great answers but I need to so are you saying that some of these charges or
some of these rules are really not warranted and we should probably just go
to wave us and really streamline the rules that’s what you’re saying to
either one is we need to know about the purpose of the law enforcement right
there so that to ensure the safety and also work and safety of people and the
public and the worker but it’s not using the bylaw to abuse like to give the
ticket of the people now the purpose of investigation so and I think the other
reason now they trying to propose like five pH I cannot get the that’s all it I
didn’t ask that question so please if you don’t mind only because I have three
minutes one of your slides you you refer to racism yes
okay what’s your basis for making that assertion I think one of the proposal
they said like they want to and not allow five pH a so to give up me the
member of the new and the member of this five pitch I cannot get the licen so but
actually what happened is this five tha the majority of the member actually is
the Asian and particular Chinese so in our like outreach more than eighty
percent of the workers are Chinese so that a lot of polls they’ve targeted our
staff your tension is that our staff have targeted
these organizations because they’re primarily Asian we find that like that
certain types of investigation yeah okay thanks thank you is I believe that
castle winter has some questions yes thank you very much and just
understanding the the presentation that you you’ve just provided the committee
with respect to the concerns around the abuse of by law enforcement and perhaps
overstepping their bounds boundaries with your concern about the excessive
and and perhaps targeted enforcement is that correct yes yes and and this is
based on the fact that you’ve that the that there’s a population that of
holistic practitioners that that are racialized people predominantly women is
that correct yes and also is English their their predominant first language
note so that majority is the new immigrants so that racialized a
particular Asian and Chinese fear and so when by law enforcement officers or
police police officers come in how do they communicate with these workers I
think the English is very limited so that like they will use difference way
too so for example sometimes they spend one hour to check like different places
and ask some question and because of the worker the English is limited so that
normally what happened is they will give the like ticket and also sometimes they
give their order so for example ask the woman to take off the clothes or ask
them to stand down allow two lamp them to like and go to the washroom so and
find a lot of – easier to give them a ticket so that’s what’s the interaction
experience what’s the work has taught us yeah and under what what circumstance do
you think would give a bylaw officer the right to ask a practitioner holistic
practitioner under what what is a situation with with that warrant that
they would asked I want to take off their clothes and to show her underwear
I think so that like from the petitioner so that they said is the huge change of
the way of the PI law enforcement so because before they mo
operative and so that like when they come in they have better attitude but
now they come in they treat them as the criminal so that they would like to like
they feel that they used like the purpose of the investigation is skip
them different like ticket and I think that in the report they also said that
they suspect some people is offering like body rock surface and also other
like other kind of like illegal activity but normally so that the people is just
regular working and sometimes by law enforcement give them the order to do so
and so is it your belief in the belief of the workers that their human rights
are being violated yes this is a serious like human rights violation yeah and
also make the people feel and not respected and very inhuman treatment and
have you engaged the services of lawyers or legal clinics to help you build your
your case so that we have working with the Chinese and South East Asian legal
clinic so they have been helping us to taking some cases and also we also
contact the proper Slifer legal clinic so they are also working with us about
like the human rights violation ezal yeah so you’ve gone time’s up thank you
then any other don’t stir the beer maker I thank you through you mr. chair and
thank you very much for coming in today I think would you agree that your
submission to us and what’s in the staff report are very very different very
different because when they developed a stop report and even the audio report
they refer to so that is like based on the staff experience so there is no
formal consultation to the holistic petitioner so there is no consultation
to the PHA so like the professional association I think that process is very
problematic and a lot of their allocation is not evidence-based so so
and I think a lot of information also misleading so for example the statistic
I show is from the information from by law enforcement but they never show it
in the report so for example like the is ridiculous so for four hundred massage
pallet we hear so much complain of the noise all day right but you see how like
twenty percent of the inspection in that 400 like with that petitioner I
think that’s is ridiculous yeah when you did your research do you believe there
is any illegal activity happening centers I think any sector may have
different like activity right so that there is already the bylaw of the
holistic by law so that regulate that if the people Valley that particular by
thoughtful for example offering other service they can be charged right now
they what they will my question to you and I’m not trying to cut you off but we
have a short time I think my question to you is based on your research do you
believe there are illegal activities happening in some of these places but
very small proportion so like for example like so then you’re not so again
so you’ve said to us before at one level you believe that the biggest threat to
the women is not the human traffickers yes but our by law enforcement
yeah it’s also from the like experience from the work have reflect to us and our
our by law enforcement officers identified five associations or five
groups that were causing I think we’re not causing that we’re related to ninety
eight percent of the problems so don’t you think that you and I should enforce
the law independent of race or ethnicity we should based based on evidence and
facts yeah so if I if I inspect your company
and you’re breaking in the law shouldn’t I do something to stop you right and I
don’t care what race or ethnic background you are I think I think yes
but the way they break the law so that I think they don’t give the complete
picture to the committee and also ought the counselor because likewise 80
percent of the ninety percent of the people break the law because ninety
percent of the people is belongs to that company when they are like like the
football player right so that when majority is the football player of
course the rate of the football player in war fiends in like the football
injury is higher because it’s related right so I think that is the information
the staff have not show it to us and what’s kind of violation you see why the
tickets being easy to compare with the chair here broken so that like tiny
scratch together thank you time’s up any other questions thank you very much
appreciated and thank the people that also brought you here Thank You Barbara
ghosts no unfortunately that was for the
previous and certainly I’m not gonna say anything because they recognize some of
the individuals that work up in my part of the world this ghosts you got three
minutes thank you very much mr. chair and members of the committee my name is
Barbara Goss I’m the CEO of the Canadian Center to end human trafficking the
center has been happy to meet with policymakers at the city and politicians
including councillor Burnside a merit or e2 identify the facts surrounding the
human trafficking occurring in the city licensed establishments such as the
holistic centers and body rub parlors in Toronto in September of 2017 we met with
the MLS and social development staff along with additional stakeholders
including survivors of human trafficking victim advocates and Toronto police it
was disappointing to us to see that none of the details of our meetings were
identified under this report in the section identified as previous
stakeholder feedback we do know that in 2013 this issue came before City Council
and City Council publicly recognized that this crime was taking place in
these establishments however to date very little has been done to stop this
survivors of human trafficking Toronto Police and frontline service providers
have all confirmed that people are being trafficked in body rub parlors and
holistic centers licensed by the City of Toronto Toronto Police has in fact
confirmed and I quote at one time or another every victim of sex trafficking
in the city is forced to provide sexual services in the legitimate body rub
parlors or the illicit massage businesses pretending to be holistic
centers I’m here really for three reasons one the Auditor General’s report
of October 24 2018 adopted by City Council on November 8th last year
clearly identified that there is a problem with many city approved
professional health associations the city relies on accredited professional
health associations to govern their members the members who are licensed
holistic prep dinner’s to ensure the integrity and
honesty of their services the City Auditor General reviewed the top ten
PHAs by membership and found and I quote from that report a number of them appear
to operate on paper only many have all the required documentation in their
applications but they have questionable addresses such as residential addresses
one located in an abandoned building another at a cottage or a p.o box if the
Auditor General can identify that ten PHAs are operating basically illegally
or at least under false pretenses why does the MLS division not recognize this
also the report before you irresponsibly proposes a moratorium only on five
professional holistic associations even when the recent Auditor General’s report
emphasized that there were double that number basically operating illegally the
moratorium on new licenses or renewals of existing licenses should extend to
all those being submitted under the guise of illegal professional holistic
associations identified by your Auditor General new licenses or renewals of
existing licenses should only be permitted by the city when it is proven
that the related professional holistic Association is in good standing operates
legally in accordance with solid business and professional practices no
municipal sanctioned licenses should be granted or renewed if the business is
operating under false pretenses pretenses or potentially operating
illegally secondly it’s important to understand that the city auditor also
identified oh thank you maybe one of the counselors will ask you to finish
outside counselors your good time thank you can you please finish your thought
thank you very much we would like to recommend a few things one that the MLS
be instructed to only issue new licenses or renew licenses under applications
associated with legally operating professional holistic associations who
offer full and correct information on their practices membership addresses and
operations we recommend that the staff at MLS be instructed to place a
on all applications that request a new license or renewal of an existing
license under any professional holistic Association that seems to operate only
on paper or operates under false pretences in accordance with the Auditor
General’s report a more fulsome detailed terms of reference for the study to be
undertaken by MLS needs to be developed and made public at this committee and
before council this should include the names of participants in the proposed
stakeholder groups to be consulted particularly those who work in the area
of anti human trafficking which are not identified now in the report before you
this should also include the identify identification of participating city
staff as well as the number timing and content of the proposed meetings to be
held the report is not specific in this regard the terms of reference should
also provide specifics on the areas of study or the scope of work that should
not be limited that should include but not be limited to to two items a full
review of the licensing by laws concerning trades and businesses that
are known to be destinations for human trafficking with the objective of
establishing measures and policies aimed at addressing the consequences of human
trafficking from the perspectives of health safety and crime prevention and
to to report on a strategy to more vigorously prosecute charges related to
municipal bylaw infractions by the adult entertainment body rub in holistic
license classes there is evidence to show that there are many of these
licenses who’ve been operating and providing unauthorized services the city
auditor general found that 107 licensed holistic centers have the appearance of
offering unauthorized services we have had a professional consultant also take
publicly available data and using 20 red flag indicators has found that of the
410 licensed holistic practitioners a hundred and sixty eight of those are
providing unauthorised services over and above what the license provides
currently twelve of the hundred and sixty eight identify were directly
advertising services of sex ten of the twelve were operating openly as brothels
based on explicit evidence that’s politically available if you go on the
internet and I’ll leave my comments there Thank You counselor burn site so
in the report the report recommends that five of these pH J’s be excluded correct
yes it also identifies 37 actual PHAs yes
you’re not find it odd that there are 37 professional professional holistic
associations they’re generally like one Medical Association and one Law Society
and am I missing something no I absolutely I think it’s very odd in
fact the Auditor General found at least 10 and they did they did a limited
review but they found 10 we’re not operating right so do you share my
concern that if you identify 5 and I think the rationale for that was that
97% of the infractions were from people that were associated with those 5 that
when you have 32 others to choose from you just kind of a Singh it absolutely
would it not make sense I don’t even know if it’s possible but to identify
the actual PHAs that are legitimate absolutely does that not seem like a
simple yes and it would seem to me that the wording in the recommendation should
be that only licenses be approved through any legally operating PHA with
proper business practices that has accreditation and the accreditation
would come from where that I would suggest you might ask your MLS staff
about that I thought I’d ask you would you say it
would come through our the city or who would accredit it
I don’t think the city can do that yeah I don’t think the city accredits right
so how would we what would you have any ideas if you have no suggestions that’s
fine I’ll ask if the Auditor General is able to find through a limited review
ten that don’t operate under professional accreditation the Auditor
General could probably look at the rest of them and find out which ones are
actually operating legally right okay okay I’ll follow up more stuff anything
else you want to add okay great thank you mr. chair and thank you very much
for coming in today you’re a deputation that I’ve just been
listening to sounds very very different than the deputy before you would you
agree that there are very different conclusions I think so and the deputy
before you I asked her if she thought that human trafficking was a problem
with those five specific groups plus others in the industry and she said no
almost none so do you have the same opinion no I don’t your opinion is
different yes it is and it’s informed through conversations with law
enforcement different areas of the city where there are known high rates of
human trafficking through either illicit massage businesses or through licensed
by the city and I think I had asked the deputy before you if in her opinion the
bigger threat to women was from human traffickers or from our licensing
inspectors and she said the bigger threat to women was from our licensing
inspectors what’s your opinion who’s the bigger threat to women the traffickers
or the inspectors in the City of Toronto or are they equal what are your thoughts
my opinion is that human traffickers are a huge threat to women and girls minors
last year the City of Toronto police had six
Steve victims of human trafficking in this city the majority of those were
under the age of 18 over half of those under the age of 18 were under the age
of 16 and they have stated that at one time or another in the life of every
traffic person they are trafficked through holistic services or body rub
parlors in the city and the the recommendations that you just gave it to
us in your deputation do you have those in writing have they been through I do i
I have not but I will I can provide them to Julie okay and and what are your
suggestions again so one you’re saying I think I think there needs to be a more
fulsome review done this is a complicated issue there are a lot of
stakeholders that need to be brought to the table including those who are active
in the anti human trafficking area the city’s report doesn’t really specify
that under stakeholders which they really need to do but also there needs
to be a moratorium on licenses new licenses are the renewal of licenses
under applications that are affiliated with any professional holistic
association that seems to as the Auditor General said operate only on paper okay
great I’m gonna jump in because I’ve got four seconds left so if you could
somehow get a written version of that to our clerk it’s very difficult for me or
email it’s very difficult for me and other committee members too I think your
advice when we have absolutely nothing okay I’ll do that right now
thank you thank you is Westridge a mystical question thank you for coming
today really appreciate your being here we heard from the previous speaker that
they had hardly any or they were they couldn’t find any people that working in
these body rubs that we’re here under human trafficking
do you agree with that they they themselves may be truthful in that
statement but I know from conversation that they themselves may not have spoken
to people who are human traffic but we know from speaking to law enforcement
that this is an escalating crime it is a crime that is underground there is no
question it’s very difficult to find obviously those who are trafficking
individuals including minors will not want this to be seen but I know from
heads of certain police divisions that they are very challenged with
trafficking that is happening in various parts of the city city would you I mean
I’ve been told by police officers that a lot of the the individuals that work in
these establishments are coming over here they’re paying twelve to fifteen
thousand dollars and then their passports are withheld and then they’re
forced to to work in in this industry in order to pay off their passage would I
be incorrect in saying that there there are incidents like that and I’ve heard
about that as well from law enforcement in fact I’ve met survivors of human
trafficking who will who will speak to that as well and those experiences
however we know that the majority of traffic victims are actually born in
Canada we know that the majority of victims are not being brought in from
other countries although we do know that there are certain segments of holistic
services and and body rub parlors where there are particular numbers of women
that come from other countries and they are clustered together in these
instances as well and law enforcement will corroborate that all right thank
you very much appreciate you very much thank you anyone else think yawns it
goes for representation we move on to the next four beyond agree
grips cutter give us sandra cock and cock on shoe and andrea is turning that
I lied to to ask to ask the deputy insists that what I personally been
listening and I think my colleagues are thinking the same is true the
deputations there is lab most of the comments are
repetitive so if there is something new that you can add on to it that will be
very helpful for all of us to to understand actually exactly what needs
to be done as we move on but to repeat exactly the same it’s no one to help so
I’m asking you please let’s try to focus on the report thank you please go ahead
you have three minutes maybe we can ask some of them if they can group their
deputation because because the interest of time because we might lose quorum
that if they can group it it would make it a lot easier
yeah that will also thank you requirement you won’t we won’t be able
to make a decision today so if now I hope that you have this list that we all
have if there is a way to to make deputations as a group maybe two or
three or whatever and that we much easier and it’s much easier to organize
and to move forward great especially if you’re with same organization so you can
have only one speaker speaking on behalf of the group and supposed to do it
individually is that okay great okay please go ahead I’m sorry for the
disruption please go ahead three minutes thank you
my name is Breanna graves and I’m speaking today on behalf of showing up
for racial justice Toronto with called surge
chapter of an international organization committed to undermining white support
for colonial and white supremacist systems and institutions as members of
surge we are deeply concerned about the various ways in which city of Toronto by
law enforcement continues to violate the human rights of licensed holistic
practitioners a group made up almost entirely of Asian and migrant workers
most of whom speak English as a second language this is a clear issue of racial
discrimination and racial profiling by the City of Toronto happening to some of
the most vulnerable workers in our community and we can’t stand by while
that’s happening city of toronto municipal licensing and standards is
proposing that no applications for new holistic practitioner licences be
accepted from members associated with five professional holistic associations
and we strongly oppose this proposal by MLS the proposal to place a moratorium
on new members is informed by the 2017 Auditor General’s report on the
governing of holistic centers and practitioners which was conducted by the
staff of the MLS without consultation with holistic practitioners PHAs or
other stakeholders with lived experience this report is deeply flawed and we
understand its recommendations to be based on discriminatory bylaw
enforcement practices supported by an extensive history of targeted
inspections excessive fighting human rights and racist surveillance that
targets Asian newcomer holistic practitioners the 2017 Auditor General’s
report illustrates the city’s discriminatory position on holistic
centers and the work of holistic practitioners evidenced by inaccurate
allegations related to public health community safety incidents of human
trafficking and the provision of unauthorized services it reveals that
stereotypes are being employed to accuse all practitioners of offering sexual
services and to create an inaccurate impression of the risk of human
trafficking in reality more than 95 percent of practitioners are over the
age of 30 with no minors working as practitioners with no evidence that
practitioners are trafficked or coerced into the profession given this
misinformation we are gravely concerned about the real-world negative impacts
these recommendations will have on the lives of holistic practitioners as well
as the impacts on their families and communities that are supported by their
labor in light of this we urge you to withdraw the proposal
calling for a moratorium on new members and to conduct a comprehensive
consultation with holistic centers and practitioners as soon as possible to
formulate suggestions for amending relevant bylaws and sand regulations and
as evidenced by our last speaker speaking primarily and listening
primarily to law enforcement we’ll give you an incomplete picture of the
situation and it’s really clear that the people who are most affected that we are
all that you are concerned about protecting you are not listening to and
that has to change that is why you have the wrong picture of what’s going on and
basically today the city of Toronto’s approach to licensing of holistic
practitioners and body Rev workers is characterized by lack of consultation
and we take that in kills your approach thank you thanks questions we have a few
and the councillor Burnside’s from what you said I inferred that you your
concerns that the law enforcement really doesn’t know what’s going on I think
that that’s one way I’m just very to the point I think I think that they there
isn’t like listening to the people who are most involved and most affected so
we’re talking about stakeholders it seems to me that even including this the
Auditor General’s report not consulting with the people who are the most
affected by these decisions there’s a long history report was was really more
about is this a legitimate Association or is it not I don’t think one needs to
consult my opinion anyway what’s it what’s what is a holistic practitioner
that it would be a very good question to ask people who are well illicit
practitioners alone your kind of fear speaking on their behalf so I would
assume she’s an example of what I’m talking about is like you are talking to
other people about folks who your decisions are really deeply impacting
the reason I’m here is to implore you to change the approach that you’re taking
to make decisions you just have to include the
most marginalized people especially people with language barriers racialize
people there’s just a lot you have three minutes and but my question to you is
what is allistic practitioner if you don’t know I’m trying to understand
that’s why I’m asking questions if you don’t know I don’t I’m just trying to if
that’s if that’s your answer then that’s fine there are 37 PHAs
professional holistic associations right don’t you find that to be kind of a lot
don’t ya would you not good question to ask why why is it that way um involved
in them why why is it that way that they would probably have an answer for why
that is the case you don’t have any answers I don’t have the answer okay
cancel questions next thank you chair there is 400 or so holistic centers
operating legally or illegally and I can’t speak for others but in my word I
have 40 from on long Kennedy from Shepard and Kennedy up to Steel’s and
Kennedy and I want on some of their websites and they have explicit explicit
pictures with personal phone numbers and offering other services and I’ve looked
at a lot of them and I find them very very concerning but something like that
be concerning to you can you tell me more about what your concern is explicit
pictures of women and undergarments in in in very delicate positions I mean
positions that are inviting right I mean wouldn’t you wouldn’t you find that
troubling I know I don’t you don’t so if I wish to go to a holistic place to get
a massage that’d be okay with you if they are
advertising extra services I don’t I don’t think that that I have the
expertise to answer that question so you don’t think what I don’t have the
expertise to answer that no but you said that you don’t you
didn’t find any of them offering these kinds of services I think that people
and some of the people like a subsection of people that we’re talking about are
creating a economically viable life for themselves and if you and supporting
communities and if you want to find out more about you know I was born in
communities you’re talking about issues of exploitation if that’s what we’re
concerned about yeah what did you find when you’re advertising when you’re
advertising a body right place and you’ve got explicit pictures showing
woman in undergarments and revealing undergarments and you are attracting a
certain amount of customers every industry every like let’s be honest
that’s most industries have used that to sell to get customers like sex sells
right so you could argue that that’s happening so by other words your sex
sells they would be selling sex in those establishments what are you saying then
I’m saying that my main point of coming up here and talking to you is to say and
to ask you to please start listening to the people that you’re talking about and
that you’re legislating about and that are if you talk to them they tell you
that they’re the violence they’re experiencing is more from enforcement
then from then from trafficking if you actually talk to them and listen to them
they are not being heard language barriers are a part of it but they just
are not exactly that’s you know Elaine Lam wasn’t considered my time is up but
let me reassure you there’s no language barrier in my office in interacting
these folks and interacting with the people that work there and the
information that we get from them thank you thank you for coming but I disagree
with your statements any other questions thank you for your reputation thank you
gotta geillis good afternoon good afternoon and thank you so much for the
opportunity to address you today my name is Cara Gillis and I’m with the Canadian
Alliance for sex work law reform we are a coalition of about 30 organizations
who have come together to advance law reform that supports the rights and
safety of people who sell or trade sex in Canada one of our areas of interest
is the ways in which laws impact the exploitation of people in the sex trade
or in other erotic or adult industries as such we appreciate the committee’s
and City Council’s concern about exploitation in relation to body rub
parlors and we are pleased at the opportunity to share our expertise in
this area something we regularly encounter is the common assumption that
restrictive regulatory frameworks including stringent licensing conditions
and heavy enforcement are effective at combating exploitation including human
trafficking I need to stress that this is not true excessively strict
conditions on where when and how people can go about their work actually pushes
people away from licensed regimes either workers can’t meet the narrow licensing
criteria or workers avoid regulatory regimes because they actually undermine
their safety and their rights and expose them to exploitation and today I wanted
to provide a couple of examples of provisions within the current body rub
parlors by law that perhaps inadvertently facilitate this type of
abuse the first is section 338 a which prohibits body robbers from being
employed by more than one an owner or at more than one parlor at a time this
provision severely limits workers employment options which in turn
diminishes their power to negotiate the terms of their work and the quality of
their work conditions this of course leads to substandard or even
exploitative work conditions such as arbitrary fines and reasonable shifts in
poor pay demanding this level of worker dependence on one employer creates
conditions not just for labor exploitation but for human rights
violations including discriminatory employment practices based on workers
race age and other protected grounds this level of reliance on a single
employer also increases the potential risk of human
trafficking as people’s options and agency are constrained and they are thus
primed to comply with increasingly unreasonable demands the second example
is section 3 3 8b which requires operators to retain body rubbers
licenses in their possession I have to say this is shocking to me demanding
that workers relinquish their licenses they’re proof that they’re eligible to
work weakens their autonomy require rating requiring operators to hold this
vital documentation renders workers vulnerable to unreasonable employer
control and potential exploitation and for those of you who are familiar with
the dynamics of human trafficking holding people’s documentation can be a
key element of coercive behavior it’s unfathomable that a city by law should
not just permit this type of action but outright require it heavy by law
enforcement is another approach commonly misunderstood to be an effective counter
exploitation measure the primary problem is the manner in which by law compliance
is enforced body of workers in Toronto have described enforcement officers
behavior as demeaning and dehumanizing and you’ve heard a lot of that today
this style of enforcement so is distrust and fear among workers who then avoid
reporting abuses and isolate themselves from city services and law enforcement
protection so we do have several recommendations for reform of body rub
parlor bylaws and you have them in the joint written submission before you
today thank you any questions – because the cuts are
saying thank you through you so my own my real concern is just in regards to
human trafficking so we can come right to that the other issues I understand
and I’m not going to argue but you mentioned that the concern about the
increase what would lead to an increase in human traffic and eye trafficking I
thought you used the example of workers only being able to be employed at one
location perhaps not an increase but a potential risk when you limit people’s
options you limit the control that their employers or other people have over them
right but if you’re if you’re being trafficked
and you’re in that world against your will
why would more choice of where you can work against your will the benefits like
I don’t understand have four exits or four alternatives the more opportunities
they have to take those and the more likely somebody is to be confined
physically or conceptually to one place the less connections they have with
networks and with others okay but if you’re being trafficked you actually
you’re your exodus out of the whole industry is not going to another no oh I
would totally disagree Oh in the sex trade who have had
experiences of exploitation or even trafficking who continue to work in non
oppressive circumstances so I want to clarify okay sex work or working for
somebody else in the sex industry is in no way the same thing as being
trafficked traffic trafficking is a serious human rights violation that’s
wrong it’s a way of supporting ourselves in our family I have no problem
personally with with the ladder is the former yeah so the trafficking part yes
so how does more choice help when you don’t want to be in need
presumably if you’re I’m sorry my point was that restricting people’s options
creates opportunity for exploitation including trafficking not that this is
going to be some sort of civil silver bullet for people who are trafficked
having some way out just more about an exploitation than a trafficking by law
creates conditions of vulnerability and limit people’s rights and agency and if
this committee and City Council are as I believe you are generally concerned
about particularly women’s well-being you need to take into account how this
bylaw actually works contrary to your okay and then I’ll read your your
submission but in terms of ending or address again addressing human
trafficking what are the suggestions in your submission or are they outside of
that or do you even have any I’m not talking about the exploitation I get
that person the focus of our submission was on the upcoming review of the body
rub parlor by law and we do have suggestions as
#NAME? rights and the safety of people in those
businesses and of course alongside that there would be the element of reducing
or avoiding issues instances of trafficking alright thanks
thank you any other questions thank you for representation we’ll move on to –
Sandra qorikancha thank you I am Sandra kahan Chiu director of research and
advocacy at the Canadian hiv/aids legal network where human rights organization
based in Canada and we work to promote the rights of people living with
affected by and at risk of HIV or AIDS I’m gonna focus my submission on two
sections of body rub licensing that concern public health while Public
Health and Safety are valid objectives a municipal licensing such licensing
should be based on the best public health evidence and respect human rights
in our view these sections fail on both regards first subsection 3 33 and 346
SIA the bylaws require medical exam and certification of people applying for
body rub license who are as you’ve heard predominantly women indicating that
they’re free from communicable disease this requirement requirement is
impractical overly broad arbitrary and contrary to effective evidence-based
Public Health practice as a frame of reference Toronto Public Health lists
over 60 reportable communicable diseases ranging from HIV to food poisoning given
the scope and number of diseases requiring a medical practitioner to
certify a patient in this regard is impracticable the scope and number also
suggests that the testing requirement is arbitrary and driven more by assumptions
and moral judgments than by public health considerations even even in
healthcare related jobs involving certain exposure prone procedures such
as invasive surgery there’s no sweeping employment prohibition on persons who
have a communicable disease given the assumed sexual nature of body rub
surfaces it is possible that communicable diseases are presumed to be
those that are sexually transmitted yet evidence suggests that mandatory testing
of SD is actually compromises actress access to sexual host health services
and drives people away from testing mandatory testing is also
coercive and unethical medical practice violates the human right to voluntary
confidential testing perpetuate stigma against people who provide sexual
services and fosters distrust of health care systems prohibiting people with
sti’s from employment also violates the right to be free from workplace
discrimination since body rub services can be provided by person with an STI
including HIV with no risk to clients as the Ontario Human Rights Commission has
noted employment related medical exams or inquiries conducted as part of the
applicant screening process are prohibited under the Ontario Human
Rights Code second subsection 3 46 of the bylaws prohibits a mission of or
performance of body rub services on any person exposed to or living with any
communicable disease this means a person merely exposed to food poisoning or the
flu is barred from even entering a body rub parlour again this requirements
overly broad arbitrary and misaligned with effective Public Health practice a
client living with HIV for example poses effectively no risk of HIV transmission
as a recipient of body rupp services a wholesale prohibition constitutes a
violation of Ontario’s Human Rights Code therefore we recommend that the
committee repeal both bylaws and instead commit to provide free access to sexual
health resources to body rub providers and most importantly meaningfully
consult with body rep providers in relation to further public health
initiatives to ensure the Health and Human Rights a body rub providers and
clients are respected protected and fulfilled and finally I just want to
adopt the recommendations put forth by my colleagues from the Canadian lines
for sex work law reform at which the legal network is a member thank you
questions thank you for your participation then they said the epital
we have Andrea Stirling and lean that sang and both of them are from the
Toronto sex workers Action project I’m not sure if you are willing to make a
jump recitation is I think that Andrea is turning right
yes do we have a lien that son here Linda’s not here okay great so please go
ahead three minutes hi my name is Andrea
sterling I’m the representative for Maggie’s Toronto sex workers Action
project on issues related to law and regulation
I initially conduct research on the sex industry as a PhD candidate at the
University of Toronto Centre for criminology meggy’s mission is to
provide advocacy and support to assist sex workers to live and work with safety
and indignity as such I will focus on two prohibitions in the body or a bylaws
that are of great concern to us as they create unsafe working conditions firstly
subsections 343 and 355 G prohibit locking doors and body rub parlors in
the event of a disruptive or threatening incident workers and operators are not
able to implement protective measures which place operators and potential
violation of Ontario’s Occupational Health and Safety Act they also violate
workers privacy and dignity by permitting enforcement officers to walk
in on women who are partially or fully undressed in changing areas and showers
we encourage the committee to look to the amendment made to the holistic
centers and holistic practitioners by law in 2005 which allowed locking doors
in holistic centers for for security and safety purposes this very same logic and
protection should be extended to body rub parlors secondly subsection 358
prohibits the usage of photographic recording devices including security
cameras in body rub parlors as a result attendants are made vulnerable to a
wealth of potential harms and are unable to identify disruptive or violent people
to deny them future entry to the premises security cameras could also be
a very valuable tool for law enforcement particularly those who are interested in
investigating issues relating to trafficking we encourage the community
to review bylaws in other jurisdictions such as Edmonton where body rub parlors
are permitted to use security cameras in Edmonton body robbers have reported
that since they have been allowed to use security cameras their working
conditions have become much more safe to address privacy concerns we suggest that
the committee looked to the changes made to the adult entertainment club by law
in 2013 following MLS’s staff recommendation to amend the prohibition
on cameras the amendment allowed clubs to install security cameras and included
conditions to protect privacy maggie’s recommends that the municipal and
licensing standards committee remove the prohibitions on locked doors and cameras
and allow the installation of security cameras and public areas to provide safe
working conditions we also further support the recommendations put forward
by our colleagues at the hiv/aids legal network as we remember a group of the
Canadian Alliance for secretin sex work law reform thank you thank you right on
time thanks so much questions yes deputy deputy mayor we
better make you Thank You mr. chair and thank you very much for coming in today
have you submitted your deputation and recommendations in writing to the clerk
as well I was part of the joint statement that was submitted sorry
there’s a joint statement that was submitted by my colleagues at the
Canadian okay that must be coming around then but it’s submitted yes okay great
thank you any other questions thank you the next step
is in the way of Gary good absence afternoon my name is Noel Gary I’m a
lawyer I represent it’s actually now 22 of the
25 licensed body rub parlors I’ve submitted a letter that’s for your
review I think it’s premature to start discussing what changes or amendments to
the bylaws should be made this particular meeting I’m waiting to see
what staff recommends at this point I wanted to introduce myself and go back
ask to be included of course in any consultations or meetings in perk and
provided with all materials but other than that no comment or no instructions
to deal with the recommendation with respect to the profession professional
holistic associations today just wanted to make sure you do have my letter does
everybody have that letter that was submitted it was submitted by hand on
Friday to the clerk great okay so I just want to make sure everyone had the
letter and did and to make sure that my clients who are major stakeholders I
after 88% of the license holders of the owners of body-roll parlors are included
in any future consultations or meetings okay I have no other submission thank
you any questions sure if you didn’t get it I’m happy to email it to you tomorrow
we do have a package of submissions from from everyone so we have to go through
it so it’s in here I am I think advised by the clear that’s been here your
submissions here thank you great thank you so I’d ask you to kindly review it
and I’m happy to answer any questions whenever anybody wishes any questions
thank you I believe that is capable and number nine chest in conch my
what you say sir please say go Akane three minutes hello counsel my name is
Justin Kong and I am a representative from the Chinese Canadian National
Council Toronto CCNC Toronto is an organization that has been serving
Chinese Canadians in the city of Toronto for over 35 years we’ve been promoting
equity social justice diversity and public engagement and civic engagement
amongst Chinese Canadians in the city of Toronto
our committee organizing work has ranged from successfully pushing the Government
of Canada to provide a comprehensive rejects of head-to-head tax survivors to
supporting everyday Chinese Canadians in the community whether they are new
immigrants or longtime Canadian citizens we can’t live in our membership
thousands of Chinese Canadian residents in Toronto voters small business owners
workers union members professionals newcomers and members from our walk of
life it seems like today’s discussion we iterate many of the points I just want
to make one thing really clear we really have two interpretations right one is a
person who has talked to a thousand of these people who work in body rub and
holistic practitioners and we have a narrow perspective which has talked to
predominantly police involved police and law enforcement and someone who works it
within the community I can tell you that there these are two very different
pictures and there’s one picture here that is more realistic and accurate and
speaks to the lived experiences of people who work in these industries and
that’s the view of the people who have talked to a thousand people so to make
that point more clear whole is holistic practitioners are not being trafficked
of the 1,000 people that have been communicated with none of them have been
trafficked second point the issue here really is a issue of racial profiling
because what we have is a selective targeting of five practitioner Health
Association’s who are predominantly racialized Chinese and Asian they’re
being targeted by this Paul see which you are attempting to stop
them from continuing their licensing as a representative from the CCNC Toronto I
can tell you that we find such a position reprehensible we know many many
different racialized communities have been targeted by different policies
which have negatively affected them in the Chinese Canadian community this is
an other example of a long history of targeted abuse there is no evidence to
suggest that the people who are working as holistic practitioners are being
trafficked in that case what can someone explain to me why is there such a
disproportionate policing of these individuals as has already been made
clear and then will be made more clear later on the way in which different
holistic practitioners are policed is drastically different you will hear
later from a gentleman who owns a store and he will tell you about the ways in
which they’re quite practically different so let me recap this is an
issue of profiling if you pass this forward what are you are saying to us is
you think it is OK for enforcement to racially profile and target certainly
Thank You mr. Cohn these questions and counselor side first excuse me ma’am
thank you three you mentioned about the number 1000 was that holistic
practitioners yeah I believe so okay so have you spoken all no I I’m citing a
report that was conducted by another organization who has spoken
okay so so your contention that none of the 1000 allistic practitioners are
being trafficked is based on someone else’s report yeah yeah one
clarification that’s all but you have a fairly good knowledge of the industry
I have a fairly good knowledge of the Chinese Canadian community or the
holistic I would say I have a
fair understanding okay what is a holistic practitioner I think a holistic
practitioner conveys a broad range of duties and tasks I can’t say I’m an
expert in that so I can’t I will not be giving you a defined category of what
holistic practitioners do or do not do it’s just very hard for us to make
decisions when we don’t even really know what we’re talking about but let me
interrupt yeah so the the body rub parlors with this
would a holistic practitioner be similar to someone who works in a body rub
parlor in your opinion my understandings are those different licenses oh yeah I
know I know they’re different licenses one pays thirteen thousand and one pays
about 300 or something so I don’t care about the license I just want to know
what if the if they’re doing the same line of work I would assume they’re in
different lines of work out so then would it make sense to for the holistic
because my concern is there are 37 different PHAs I think my point really
is but it’s my point that I’m trying to clarify here I’m sorry to interrupt it
would it not make sense to license all these PHAs as body rub parlors and
however and because it seems like forget it forget any other discussion it just
seems like there’s certainly an unlevel playing field here yeah I’d say what
this proposal is is the target five specific PHAs which are predominantly
Asian predominately Chinese and racialized and to stop them from
accepting new members so but if we but if and I just came up a council if we
said hey let’s make every let’s license everyone this is just one suggestion as
a body rub parlor that I think would take array away the racialization aspect
because I I don’t think I think it’s just here’s the license for a body rub
pay your thirteen thousand dollars and let’s figure out how we how we go from
there cuz it seems to me that the PHA is right
now at paying three or four hundred bucks a year or whatever that number is
it’s actually working in the reverse yeah I mean and having heard the stories
the people it’s clear there’s a very racialized pattern of policing right
it’s like Chinatown we’re gonna police Chinatown
because yeah last question thank you any other questions yes transcriptions oh
I’m sorry yeah I will go to are disappearing in detention because one
time please okay yes thank you very much I just want understand your concerns are
not so much they about the license but rather the treatment of the other by law
officers when they do come into to to check for bylaw infractions is that
correct yeah I believe that is a very important part of it right the policing
and the enforcement of holistic practitioners as we’ve heard stories
from them firsthand has been routinely abused by enforcement officers right the
earlier story around you know the enforcement officer asking the
practitioner to take off the clothes digging through their personal
belongings in search of supposed suspect items to people who largely don’t speak
English and are newcomers to the country but it’s not that you object licensing
you want the licensing and criteria to be transparent easy to understand you’re
you’re in support of the licensing regime is that correct I think our
position is that the current position on the table which is to stop memberships
from the five PHAs that should be stopped right I think we should send
that back to be reworked right because as of right now it is clearly targeting
five associations which are predominantly racialized in
predominantly Chinese and Asian right and have clearly been over policed and
do you have any evidence that these five agencies are being targeted as opposed
to perhaps their application being incomplete sure so we’ve heard from from
what we’ve heard from the workers right is that there has been a tremendous
increase in the rate of enforcement and the rate of actually the enforcement
officials coming to the stores you’ll be hear more from what the workers later
who will share with you the experiences of what that has been like and an
increase in that amount right so to me it seems like there is there is
pattern behavior here and it seems to be racialized and pattern in that sense
right thank you very much thank you thank you and we have got
square Janice please enjoy previously that there’s a language barrier that the
individuals that work in these locations and then be targeted and they cannot
speak is this something that you also are able to confirm for us yeah I would
imagine with me like yeah there are many people who may not be speaking English
as their first language okay if they don’t speak English then how did they
get status in Canada how did they legally were able to enter Canada in
order to come to Canada you need to speak I believe we we have a policy in
the City of Toronto that we don’t we don’t ask questions around immigration
I’m not asking that question but if they don’t speak English that what I’m trying
to drive at don’t really worry about that that policy what I’m trying to
drive out are that these people are coming over to Canada on a visitor visa
and they’re being exploited regardless of how they are coming over these people
work here they have rights here I understand sir
but what this does is it takes easing some more vulnerable what I’m trying to
point out to you sir is that these people are being exploited and they’re
human being human they are being trafficked as has been made is here
there is absolutely no evidence that they’re being trafficked right you have
someone who has talked to a thousand of these people and they told you they’re
not being trafficked on the other side you have someone who has been talking to
police officers and they’re saying yeah yeah there’s a lot of trafficking going
on it’s a serious problem so clearly well I’ll tell you that I’ve
obvious to me who what is that correct I mean talking to police officers in my
ward and certainly these are individuals that are of different ethnic backgrounds
the police officers they they relate to me that there’s a lot of people that
have been there being trafficked into Canada I mean who do I believe do I
believe the thousand or do I believe the police officers that protect us yeah I
mean I I think I would believe the people who are affected by the issues
who are the people working there people who own those businesses and I
understand your word very well many of our members are there right I got 40 of
them sorry I got 40 out of the 500 right and
I think they’re important industries right massage a lot of I can start
naming them and and I believe there’s a clear pattern here of assuming that just
because it is a Chinese holistic practitioner they are somehow engaged in
human trafficking I think that is a highly problematic position would you
like more tea that I have how many of them offer other services would you like
to guess or would you like to tell me I won’t speculate on what they’re doing
but I’m saying their value members would you like to look at their websites are
you seeing website those are all traffic if you looked at their websites no I
haven’t looked at the way I suggest you might want to do think it you’re
appreciate it Thank You counselor is deputy me do better me too please go
here Thank You mr. chair and thank you very much for coming in today
I just want to ask you I’ve read the Auditor General’s report and your
submission to us as you believe that it’s targeting a racialized group I
believe the complete opposite so well I’m gonna see if we know one or two of
us can come together with the same understanding when the Auditor General
does what an Auditor General does she hurt her the aim of that report was not
to go out and to talk to sex trade workers that was not that’s not what her
mandate was that’s not what she was supposed to do mm-hmm
so if she went out and talked to a thousand sex trade workers I would
actually been very surprised because she wouldn’t have been doing her job her job
was very simple one just like an accountant at income tax time all she
did was look up an organization called the NASA national certification board
for natural therapies when she looked at that name would you agree with me you
can’t tell what ethnic background that organization is just by reading the
title sure the word Chinese is not in there the word racialize is not in there
the word equity seeking is not in there it’s it’s got it sounds national
certification board for natural therapies so would you agree with me
that if an auditor does what an auditor is supposed to do and says I want to
make sure that this organization is obeying the law
and she investigates it and finds out they’re not obeying the law would don’t
you think there should be consequences yeah yeah artless of what ethnic
background they were maybe they’re Belgian sure if it’s if the owners of
this Association are Belgian you they should have consequences yeah absolutely
and so a new degree they’re not being targeted because they’re Belgian what
what I’m saying is the targeting is the five holistic practitioner associations
that be that are being singled out to prevent them from acquiring new
memberships but that is what I’m pointing out not would you agree with me
that are not being singled out by race well no I would say they are exactly
singled out by violation right and not obeying the law absolutely if all of
those were Belgian all five of these rare Belgian based which is my heritage
sure so if they were all Belgian Canadians if your hell then you’d have a
list here saying these five groups that are Belgian Canadian should be not
allowed to continue and you think that would be fair yeah so I mean on that
point the PHAs that are being targeted have the most violations but if they
also have the most membership right and they have been what I’m suggesting is
that the very policing of those PHAs has been racialized from the beginning right
so it’s like if you’re going to specific locations that are racialized assuming
that people they are being trafficked then what you’re going to come up with
is violations right and you will see later the just egregious ways in which
violations are being handed out or like you know rips in sofa exactly cetera
right my last quick question to you so you would feel more comfortable if
during our inspections for example and there’s 400 locations that we have some
random aspect to it yeah III it’s random I can’t pick on Belgians and I can’t
pick on Chinese it’s random what I believe is there is a racialized
enforcement that is going on thank you policing and I laughs right
okay thank you thank you so we’ll go to the next one is jamming
sing Gillian sing yumping followed by jasmine I was Gaia and shown you in
Jayden great good afternoon thank you for waiting
please go ahead two minutes hi my name is Jayden pan also I’m here to represent
the holistic practitioner Alliance so our alliance is formed by the holistic
practitioners and members who concern about the rights and working conditions
of holistic like centers in Toronto the majority of our members are newcomer
Canadians from Asia who have faced employment challenges due to language
barriers like of Canadian work appearance barriers to access in the
Kenyan job market so most of them work so hard to make ends meet
not only do holistic practitioners engage in the profession to earn money
to for themselves and families and also recognize their own professional
knowledge and skills also provide momentary relief and enhance emotional
and physical well-being of clients so they also paying taxes that’s the the
word that we have on them so they also pay checks they also create a job and
they generate a city revenue via licensing fees and many municipal taxes
so they will think that the municipal laws where policy will be the one to
protect them but like now since 2006 12 and some the
policy changed so they start facing some of the excessive unnecessary
discriminative inspections and the prosecution which they don’t know what
happened after that they just like experience lots of lots and lot of
exactions and then don’t feel respectful so I’m gonna
some of the concern of our community so ladies the rapid increase of the
investigation really affect their jobs because sometimes they visit like three
times a week and sometimes they interrupt the business and then
sometimes I just go into the massage parlor without any notice but they will
have the clients on-site so it’s really like interrupts sometimes the clients
don’t feel satisfied with their job so they just don’t pay because the there
are like officers go in but their service hasn’t like finished so they
just like listen don’t pay they don’t feel they don’t feel good about that and
also we believe from our experience some practitioners are treated
disrespectfully without dignity and worth assumption of criminality during
inspections for example some of the by loyal officers will come after then
she’ll die cast and stand there and don’t move
but like due to some of the language barrier they couldn’t like coming ahead
efficiently so they couldn’t tell the officers I’m going to take my license
because some of them they will change through the different location they just
put their license in the purse but they haven’t had a chance to get their the up
and put on the wall they just got there and the inspection officer come and and
they said don’t move so they couldn’t get it so there is no clear guideline of
the standards so they don’t know why I am being charged and they don’t they
don’t know why I received a ticket and why this fines like thank you any
questions today a different transfer wanton thank you
Jaden for your deputation I want to clarify you’re coming here before this
committee today to also oppose the the recommendations that are contained in
this report is that correct yeah okay so you do not believe that that the
recommendations are treating these five holistic practitioner organizations
fairly you believe that they’ve been singled out largely because of an
exorbitant exorbitant that have been placed directly upon them is that
correct no I don’t believe it yeah because I
believe some of the organizers that fire organizations they don’t even know that
they are being removed now so that’s why we are in information is now
transparency at all and even yeah and is it because of language barriers or
language barrier and a sensible accessibility of the policy we don’t
even have anybody do notice us well policy has been changed what kind of
policy and what’s the standard that what kind of policy and also I have to follow
it every time the office are coming and
they just get a ticket but they don’t have convocation even sometimes they are
charged or charging us but like we don’t know what’s happening now and is it
because we knock the door lock the door or is it because we locked all the ways
out the side or is it what happened we don’t know we just got the ticket every
time we got to go to the court yeah and we just pay to fight because we
couldn’t charge you with stuff Jaden if I if I can ask you another question so
number one is that you don’t feel the the enforcement has been fair is that
correct you you feel the enforcement has
targeted a particular group of practitioners largely I used on their
race and their and perhaps their language abilities and I don’t have
chance to fight back and and so they don’t have a chance to fight back and
that’s why you’re opposing the recommendations today yeah so we need
the consultation right away before we remove the five organizations so if
proof procedural fairness is not before us because the charges are disputable
there are lots of them is Understanding between both sides based on the fact
that you believe that there has been excessive targeting of this racialized
community that’s why you’re opposing the recommendations yes okay thank you thank
you any other questions Dib tomato just three mr. chair and
thank you for coming in today so again I think you’re worried that one community
is being targeted and other communities are not are being off may be ignored or
at least not targeted I don’t really care about who’s being
like ignore or talking I just need a fair treatment to all the workers yeah
right because now it seems like we don’t have accessibility to all the
information so we don’t even know we are being ignored or target how much is it
we just feel it like the instant best acacia is getting increased every day
then every time we don’t have chance to fight back but it’s not like this way of
course that I heard about like everybody talking about the human trafficking part
but like we recognized it’s happening like in some of the parts we don’t know
yeah but like this should not be the problem with the issue that can treat
other workers like this way like we shouldn’t like our policy should be
reasonable not just based on only based on the anti-trafficking then we should
like targeting or like investigate all the workers like searching their purse
or whatever but they should be tree like a sec regular workers yeah but do you
understand that when our Auditor General mm-hmm did her investigation she’s not a
police officer she’s an auditor general mm-hmm
when she did her investigation these were the facts that she found she didn’t
say I’m targeting this one because of their ethnic race she didn’t know what
their ethnicity was but for our community members they will feel they
are targeted because they don’t know they just know that they come maybe
every day every week three times a week so they may not know it but do you
understand that when our Auditor General goes through all her her investigation
then we should then the germinal being public and transparent to our coming
members yes yeah and if all these five organizations by coincidence were all
from the European community or the South Asian continent or the South American
community should we then say then it’s fair because some are South American and
some were Eastern European and some worth south-asian but even just
like focus on their ethnicity but we still have to look at the requirements
and their like their standard their rules and then how does it impact the
Chinese community as I said some of the culture of the Chinese community and the
language is different everybody has a different level of difficulty to like
deal with the things but like these five organizations like their mem members
might be the Chinese because maybe they teach in Chinese in the same in the
other way they can like pass the information by the way they can
understand Oh God yeah okay great thank you thank you
excuse me ma’am excuse me excuse me Jaden Jaden you have other questions
please it’s just not okay share through you to the speaker very quick question I
said that in a store we starting at five times in a week three times a week which
one I couldn’t tell you which one because they are our friend off revenge
sorry you made this statement we know which one we know exactly if you can
tell us which one I would appreciate you because we have if you can’t tell us
they really have to protect our members they really made a statement through the
chair I’d like to clarify which which which which location was it you also
made a statement that a lot of the doors of these locations are locked why are
they locked they didn’t like to sometimes they just victim toys like
maybe it’s hard to push or like sometimes they have climbed on site they
are talking to clients they are in the room like they just like couldn’t make
it in three or five seconds then then officer said you’ll lock the door share
through you there talking to clients in they little cubicles correct
but you can see their little language barrier how can Laila tell really clear
to the client oh now he’s like official coming in and it takes time sometimes I
need to use body language and to explain all this things happening are all these
locations yeah okay and you know over location that was
visited three times but you won’t be able to tell us yeah
and you also mentioned that the longer the doors and most of the time were
locked most of the time a lot I’m sure you tell me I was saying sometimes they
are charged by day lock the door yeah but and it’s not the truth because they
sometimes of toys just like locked it’s hard to push but like could they didn’t
lock it is hard to push and sometimes happen when they are talking to the
clients and then hurt somebody knock in the door and then couldn’t get
their driver to open so they got ticket and then couldn’t explain to the officer
oh now I’m talking to the clients in the room it’s just like three minutes with
five minutes so three three taken the five seconds different you just
appreciate like you to make it thank you very much however I wouldn’t bring you
take a walk with me on my 40 locations and we can go visit each one of them and
see how many of them are open would you like to do that yeah we have our
Tsingtao to come with us would you like to do is okay weather and I do have one
question for you is and this is related to cancer one terms questions that does
she have for you in terms of any tea city and I do know that that we’re not
dealing only with South Asians but also we have a large number of Brazilians
Portuguese Spanish and so there is a private of diversity so they my question
to you is entering so the Auditor General’s report and she’s talking about
the pH the eh-eh-eh we’re 98% order by law charges
in 90% of convictions had to do with us five a pH PHAs and and she’s not is
talking about an individual group individual ethnic community it’s an
overall so wouldn’t you agree that we are not targeting or the city’s not
targeting anyone in particular but because there is problems there and
that’s why these recommendations were adopted I cancel with interview with
that that’s why we need to do the consolation before we make any decision
of the policy so now we we have we are we are trying to come connect with the
phi p a chase owner and then to see what happened and we already know like
majority of the members they have the license from them so there are Chinese
people so we’re gonna find out what happened and because because now we
already know that most of people there are Chinese already so is are you
perhaps insinuating that the recommendations from the Auditor General
should not we shouldn’t be paying attention to it because my
recommendation is the 5 PHA now before we we do and the consultation with our
community members we need to know more details thank you
user advice them once if they’re doing again come up so we have a number
thirteen just mean I was a guy a hell of a showing UN and Kenya slain so just
mean a booze gaya do we have just mean shown you in shown you in
please have a seat
and if you can say your name please I’m a small businessman channel to your
Chinese attention to I think I have the right to tell you what happened in our
work up as a massage parlor in Dorian’s I will me a woman can see I’m watching
me on tour with a call and she family so that is a lot of like a Miss
information and also like wrong information to talk about us is
trafficking you look like me if I if I look like an being traffic we can find –
if I saw you on your mouth is it I look like a traffic control traffic 17 years
old girl is or should be I dollars damage EDA most of my staff actually is
like 40 to 50 years also that even older than me so they are like aunt Samia what
I should say a five-yard to report to me makes it somewhat treating me here to
assist in doing that so I want to tell you so that I want to show you the
ticket I got so that to see how this policy and structure is the racist
so that you can see there is as little more crack even you cannot see it in
kind of question anime oh you single CEO Jin Yong locality down fat and these are
you – and if I were you so that I opened this business have been
run for more than ten years there is happy no problem but like this this year
they have been like coming and this one that you need to pay $300 for the fine
but actually when the people do massage they cannot touch that the the the Mets
because there was there will be a lot of tower cover around me
so that you pay attention this is the picture from the
fitness center so one hunk is women issue and I think you are driven so that
is can see that that is lie selectively how to enforce the law functional jihad
that is an insulting us with the wrong information
yeah how you are so the other thing is we have a main card some enters a Goomba
a woman is that information of the appointment with the client some kind of
singer me you’re in teasing me oh you license ha ha we have been running
business for 10 years there is no people tell them they need to have a license
number way too much Union create yogic I find that you and may you license why
they give me a ticket because I don’t have license number of my name in here
the moon Charon coming on to you Liza no I don’t believe that any business in
Toronto so that when they run the business things with lies and number in
the name card so you got tongue serum at the end all the tongues here so that and
you you you you make the mistake of the thing I Omega top we pass the you know
soldier to TIA yeah knee Sharon so and anyone will not
disclose their birthdate or like the address a personal information on the
wall in a young woman she can conquer but you need us to requires to display
on the public so you know monument remember to do so
is very unrespectful to us hany Anya hi you listen you can acquire a new holiday
in Guam actually last two years we had lice and come in to let us know we don’t
need to do it please wrap up now I’m going to be a little bit more seconds
please well actually Yuma Tori just pleased we are that push you on I have a
point of order okay point of order mr. chair because they
are epic tent is using a translator I think we should be because he’s he’s
spoken for a minute and a half and so yeah let’s say let’s get to it please I
don’t want the law become the system to use this them to oppress other like
group of community going to attack this policymaker I’m a controller counselor
woman so that we met them before and then tell us the truth
generally she agreed in common two percent rating higher cutie and
lieutenant you’ve got utility award even the reasons regulation he asked them the
question even they said they cannot get him the answer how the Lord being
operate and then they need to go back to like study and some of the particular
like regulation that sentiment Adama you should too Thank You Khun Danai show you
how to help which heading nefaria government you see there is there is a
lot of uncertainty how they know should be enforced but the law enforcement is
using that uncertainty but keep giving us the ticket sure woman do you show it
show container no controller so this is the owner that P we time into here you
can not homes am I done so is it we need to pay for the bill for
them mistake we are the small businessmen is we need to pay for the
bill for their mistake so this is a very unfair channel are
someone saying I do the world woman – what – tree surgery control your tree
surgery treat Arthur in also that in China we’ve even have the
accountability of the launch and so sorcerer Thomas changes that wait a
minute so would be annular oh I’m into that neither to poopy the Coon so now
they make the mistake and also like even that they still get the salary from the
like government so that is very unfair 300 even China did not happen like this
one was Shawn’s I’d kill em anyway treating five years reopen no pumping
your heart Yahoo Thank You Torian color-coding fre
so he said there so that any policymaking need to be fair and then so
any policymaking before they need to do research and also consultation talking
thank you so otherwise they only create a hate
like I really rather than is been I have given you an additional three times in
three minutes thank you any questions please go ahead
you can I ask where the is his business is located Chinatown downtown or
Scarborough Tong Tong don’t time tongue thank time okay does he have any friends
they got business up in Scarborough and they are facing the same difficulty me
Segawa Mohammed maybe and me would have heard a for like my time they don’t have
this half investigators asked him if he’s got any friends in Scarborough not
send that yesterday yeah so that’s they he heard that is also like this in
scapel does he had does he know of any particular story it’s hard with
no you don’t know what do you mean about the story what do you mean does he know
of any locations any business any stores or any apartments or any houses in
Scarborough that are facing the same people is complex one can you name one
almost almost everyone yes like tulips spa happy happy spa are they complaining
also like I’m French in Kennedy on McNichol and pharmacy are they also
complaining do you know of them I’m not so sure but his friend is experience the
same experience worse she’s French business can tell us where is his
business gobble his is mainly located at fountain
he said in Scarborough the location is carbine so that he said that mainly is a
time time yeah really don’t know about like this capillary thank you appreciate
what sounds wrong thank you he said like something what sound sure what is a part
of me mental here to certain do you go down with yeah sure why song with her
wallet what if anula he said he is very angry because you guy
this how policy is talking on that’s not one of my questions but I thank him if
we are you to tell another story I just see myself I never to any Oh English
brigadeiros stick yes eggs I was so hungry now excellent you
see the knock on my chrétien you answer another one thank you excuse me is okay
thank you thank you any other thank any other
questions you okay we’re done that is in the last day Pathan that we have for
today is Kenneth lien please go here take practitioners have signed a
petition after the city released I’m misleading and problematic
information in the audit report as a white person I see it as my
responsibility to speak back against these recommendations and practices
which predominantly impact racialized newcomer women there are many holistic
practitioners who don’t feel safe to speak due to backlash that they have
already experienced from law enforcement and city officials however many of them
have either been here or they had to leave due to the the time restrictions
today the holistic practitioners would like to urge the mayor the City Council
and members of the licensing and standards committee to hear their voices
here are quotes from workers Jenny Wang one Li Emmylou
Shan UN Amanda Lu Jade nollie and Cristian Chen these particular quotes
speak to problematic experiences with Bali enforcement officers and police
tears cannot change the law and the law enforcement is becoming more abusive
when we stay silent now holistic practitioners Alliance represents us to
have our voices heard by city councilors the unfair regulations had to be changed
and that’s fundamental we need a fair and pleasant work environment and
a reasonable request I was just focusing on doing my work but the by law
enforcement officers treated us like we were criminals licensing expense
inspects us too many times it has caused a lot of stress to female workers the
inspection also harasses the the customers the licensing ba-bye official
Authority people say for a very long time and they abused their power to the
extreme if they’re in a good mood they won’t issue a ticket otherwise
they’ll find fault with you somehow sometimes they come with six or seven
people making both the neighbors and clients uncomfortable it really affects
our business and results in the neighborhood not liking us if massage
practitioners like us do not quickly open the door within 3 to 5 seconds we
look at a ticket for not a winning door they are very unreasonable and
disrespectful a female officer asked my coworker to take off her clothes and
show her underwear the by law enforcement officer then took photos of
her and gave her a ticket for having unprofessional clothing they searched my
place without a warrant take out my underwear and touch the items one by one
it is really insulting I made a complaint but they took revenge
they came back and issued tickets to me and ordered my clients to leave the next
set of quotes speaks to problems with the bylaws of holistic centers times are
changing and society is moving forward the regulations and laws that are out of
date should be abolished and regulated for example of requiring customers to
register their personal information and issuing receipts mandatorily these are
not reasonable meaning is unlawful to force the customers to provide
personal information that infringes on their privacy forcing them to accept
receipts that are unnecessary massage parlour door must be locked this rule
must be resolved repealed the massage staff can access the safety situation at
work and choose to lock the door these quotes speak to accountability of by law
enforcement officers and police it isn’t only Canada every country has agencies
to work for women to ask for equality and freedom and for non discrimination
against them Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has contributed 100 million
dollars to the UN to help women suffering to
termination in poor countries to enhance their sensuous why does licensing a City
of Toronto treat us like this thank you ma’am
thank you for presentation and thank you for speaking to us questions to a staff
yeah we’re going to stop now questions of staff and VC members cancel one time
yes thank you very much mr. chair and through you the the recommendations
before us how how how important is it that these recommendations be adopted
today given what we’ve heard from the other speakers
the recommendations brought forward today is is for us as
staff really looking at this we are not stopping this activity from continuing
what we are doing is acting upon the AG report from November we’re also looking
at our own data and what it supports is is a time for a pause and to stop the
proliferation of of the additional holistic practitioners coming in into
these five areas which we have found to be problematic and sort of the AG but
but there is no reason why we can’t pause it today given what we’ve heard
especially in light of the of the of the very serious allegations that could
cross the line around criminal acts sexual violence and assaults and perhaps
inappropriate application of enforcement from our bylaw officers
does it not give us a legitimate reason to pause to to dig further to understand
what is being said by the deputies and evaluated based on what is not in the
report which are which are which are allegations of abuse of from by law
officers so what would we’re you’re right there is a number of outstanding
pieces and a lot of work that we still need to do on this a lot of research
this report lays out the framework and a work plan to do a lot of the
consultation that has been requested here today we plan on doing that we plan
on being comprehensive and as thorough as we are this was an opportunity to to
act upon a couple of outstanding requests from this council to act on
this it came up in the budget discussions as well
there are a number of outstanding directives on this as well as the AG’s
report and that’s why this report is here before you today but we could
realistically I mean we could realistically not stop you from carrying
out your work plan to review the regulatory framework at the same time
still take a moment to to investigate and to give proper consideration to the
very serious allegations that were made from the the speakers you and you can
still carry forward that body of work as long as we don’t necessarily just adopt
the recommendations and and have you move forward as if we didn’t hear
anything today like we could do both week you could carry out your work plan
and and still give these these deputies and these speakers proper consideration
of what they’ve said yeah that’s a fair point we’re willing to take direction
from the committee on however you want us to proceed thank you very much
through you to staff okay so a couple things you’ve listed five holistic
centers but I think the Auditor General’s report did not mention ten it
mentioned ten yes that’s correct okay and I from reading the report I
understand the rationale for the five is at 97 or 98 percent of the charges were
with those with those five related to those five that’s correct and that’s why
we recommended moving forward at this time with okay those are the five those
are the charges but if if the Auditor General has identified ten that are
outside of the norm or the standards that we think are
acceptable why would we not include them as well given that it would just seem
like a logical thing for someone if they were licensed under one of the five
that’s prohibited to move over to the other five so the auditor-general
through her work reviewed the top ten they found discrepancies amongst those
our comfort level which is with the top five because it’s completely supported
by our charges and convictions okay so now I my colleague mentioned about defer
I think was a deferral right refer back okay thanks because her concerns were
and correct me if I’m paraphrasing you incorrectly her concerns with
allegations made by some of the deputies is that correct that’s what allegations
and I think some of them were of criminal wrongdoing that would I’m not
sure if I understand the relationship between that and these five that are
acting outside of the normal boundaries okay
like in in the police world if there are allegations of criminal wrongdoing as
officers that is a different issue – miss Jarrett I’ll jump in yeah
completely agree with what you’re saying if there is allegations of of
inappropriate behavior by individual enforcement officers that’s a completely
different matter and what’s before you what’s before you as a policy matter
that we’re looking at reviewing how we regulate and go about providing licenses
to particular establishments if we have a separate meeting on direct allegations
of employees that’s a difference completely the difference not a policy
matter that’s oh that’s a discipline matter that we’d have to look at right
thank you so I have four seconds to ask my last question which then brings me
back to your answer through through the chair to
Karlsson do you want to rephrase your answer to councilor wong-tam not to
rephrase all I was saying is we did hear a number of things today we are
comfortable with our the recommendation we’ve put forward that’s why they’re
here my name is on the report I stand by what’s in the report it’s up to the
committee around the inner circle to decide if they support that referral or
not thank you I’m comfortable with the recognition put forward Thank You deputy
mayor you’re next please thank you through you
mr. chairman I’m talking to behind me but I’ll ask that would you agree that
some of the deputations who came today we’re really talking about something
that’s not before us today they’re talking about their concerns of racial
profiling or targeting a specific ethnic group or inappropriate behavior by
inspectors that’s our reports not dealing with that today am i correct
that’s correct this is really a work plan for the further work we need to do
on this particular bylaw so the concerns that have been brought forward today
have you ever heard concerns like that before in this field about some of our
city of Toronto inspectors who I’m assuming would report to yourself I’ll
defer that to my colleague who they do report to rod Jones the director of
bylaw enforcement so through the chair we met last week
courtesy of accounts for a long time with some of the folks that presented
today and for my first time heard some of these allegations they were stated in
generalities I took them very seriously and requested that if there was a
specific allegation or a specific incident that we would investigate it
fully as a workplace matter and if it did involve a criminal allegation that
we would refer it to the Toronto Police so then again so some of the you know
there is there I think I heard from maybe three or more deputies and I
believe it may have been this incident them saying there is a woman
inspector who told one of the women to take off some of her clothes to look at
her undergarments did was that brought forward to you through the chair that
was one of the allegations that was mentioned again I don’t have the
specifics I can tell you from personally attending with my officers that a common
practice is when the inspectors try to gain entry into some of these locations
there is a for lack of better words mad dash to put on clothing it’s usually
outer garments coats robes oftentimes misbuttoned to cover up what the
holistic practitioners are wearing as the bylaw states they have to be
professionally attired it’s a it’s a mechanism to try to mask what they’re
wearing and through minim mr. mr. chair I know this is I’ll take your string
from this specific as what’s before us and the accusations are I think two
separate things but my understanding is that there are people from many parts of
the world in this industry from every continent on this planet would that be a
fair statement not just the Chinese community but there’s South Americans
Western Europeans Eastern Europeans South Asians Africans every continent in
the world is probably here doing in this business that’s a fair statement okay
great thank you any other questions yes Kazuko Janice Thank You chair through
you to staff what we have in front of us today is asking you to do work and
report back correct what it outlines is a roadmap of
work that we have to do over the next eight to twelve months and report back
in the interim it it allows us to pause and not allow the issuance of further
holistic practice licenses in the interim also sure you wanna set the time
right that’s right in the in the meantime it
also allows you to hear from people that make deputations today and accusations
and and and whatever was out there and communities being targeted this will be
something of the work that you will be doing in the next year or whatever it is
absolutely and we’ve made contacts with many of the people that have spoken
today and we will be reaching out to them in the future
through you chair to the person responsible for bylaw enforcement of
that particular segment you mentioned that there’s a mad dash when you’re
bylaw officer knocks at the door through the chair yes that’s a pretty common
occurrence that the holistic practitioners will try to put on extra
layers of clothing to avoid being charged with not being professionally
dressed so there is there’s there’s more they’re going on than just holistic
practitioners I can’t hear myself through the chair yes we have done
investigations and have found that services other than those that have been
licensed are being offered advertised and and and performed at some of these
locations would you be able to that to either to confirm or deny that a lot of
these holistic locations or spas that are advertised they have pictures on the
website of Fredi showing Tara I really I appreciate
this I mean you know like put my time on hold and ask the counselors either to
the desk or for me to leave and I mean I’m trying to ask questions I was
respectful of when you were there is a little bit about singing and I and I
appreciate Castle Christian is that you’re bringing this to my attention
because you do the same respectfully please continue
thank you have you found that there is pictures with women with little or no
clothing clothing that is enticing on their websites that suggests that they
also provide other services through the chair I can confirm that as part of our
investigation we do online research we do look at open source information that
would be on the Internet and there is evidence of that type of advertising
that is fairly prominent in the industry last question that I have chair is
should we be asking a provincial or federal jurisdiction government to look
at these 3738 associations and bring them under one umbrella which is self
regulating is able to throw people out of can we ask for that is that something
that’s feasible I’d imagine it’s feasible it’s something we can look at
I’m not sure definitively if it can be done or not legal anything
Corey yeah I certainly I certainly think it’s possible that a higher level of
government could set up a regulatory regime for this sort of thing for a self
licensing body that’s something that can be explored and and requested something
like the immigration consultants a few years back and they were brought all
under the Upper Canada Law Society some of those links certainly and there’s
definitely options for our more senior levels of government
provide regulations in thank you any other questions if not a couple
quick questions this topic has been under the radar since 2011 in terms of
trying to correct the wrongs from the past as it relates to the mainly the
illegal right by parlors and so my question to you is in terms of the
recommendations from the Auditor General is given here recommendations as well
you are trying to put the brakes for now to ask him for moratorium to consulting
to come back with report is that intention is the intention sure so this
report listening from depth ends that it doesn’t have to do anything with
race/ethnicity and as it’s being alleged because I’m very concerned with that
aspect as well so I just want to make sure that we are using that’s not the
angle that is it is taking any way whatsoever can you please elaborate on
that by no means are we taking that angle great thank you so we’ll get two
speakers and these hearing members just one time please go ahead
three minutes yes thank you very much mr. chair if I can ask the clerk to
please put the the motion onto the screen and hopefully I could have a
member here take carriage of it the motion is simply to refer this item back
to the executive director of MLS and to continue to constitute consultations or
the professional holistic associations while carrying out the work plan not
disrupting their work to finish the comprehensive review of chapter 5 4 5
mr. chair I have great concerns about some of the the remarks that were said
today on be from the deputies I can’t think of a time where a bylaw officer
walked through a venue to inspect a property three to four times
a week quite honestly I can’t get a bylaw officer to come and visit the
parks when we need to to call them I can’t get a bylaw officer to investigate
noise or a dog off leash area that’s run rogue but yet they’ve been able to find
themselves in the same establishment three to four times a week and so when I
hear the the deputies missed mr. chair speak about feeling targeted feeling
that they are being harassed it does raise some alarm bells for me because it
doesn’t reconcile based on what I know the volume of activity from bylaw
officers and every other field in Toronto that they have jurisdiction what
I also have concerns about mr. mr. mr. chair is that the fact that we have
folks who are predominantly of the Chinese Canadian background whose
English is not their first language who are speaking through interpreters who
are sharing their lived experience and telling us at this committee that they
feel based on all their observations and their lived experience is that they are
being targeted and discriminated against and they’re saying that they’re being
violated their human rights are being violated their civil rights are being
violated that tells me mr. chair that we need to pause this process not pausing
the work but pause this particular recommendation the report so that we can
actually do some deeper investigation and find out is there truth in what is
being said because if there is and I can’t think of a reason why there isn’t
but if there is we need to at least do our due diligence and by pushing this
report through I don’t think that we are the auditor-general did a paper the
Auditor General did a paper audit on did somebody fill out their paperwork
correctly and get you know if you put paperwork in front of my parents now in
English even though they’ve been in the country for 30 plus years I’m going to
tell you right now they will fill out those forms wrong and that’s not because
they’re not good people and they’re not crooks it’s just because English is
still not their first language and they’re still struggling after all these
years I have been able to learn the language they have no
and I don’t feel like there’s anything wrong with us being being careful in how
we move through this particular stage of this body of works considering what
we’ve heard today thank you very much any other speakers deputy Mia Thank You
mr. chair I’ll certainly move that motion on behalf of councilor wong-tam
if it’s necessary I know you usually do as a as a matter of courtesy but I won’t
be supporting that motion however because I think the concerns that I’ve
heard raised today by some of the workers are separate and segregated and
distinct from what this report says to us today so I’m uncomfortable with the
report I’m comfortable that our Auditor General had no racial bias when she
looked up these companies she didn’t know who owned them she didn’t know what
gender they were she didn’t know their sexual orientation she didn’t know their
language she didn’t know anything about them what she knew was there is a a
company name and address etc etc she went to look for those and found out
that they were apparently fraudulent or shell companies or companies that were
doing things illegally the Auditor General did her job blind to the fact of
who it may be at the other end of that application and I you know I think these
companies do employ a lot of people they are for the legal activities they do
their legal activities there are permitted activities they generate I
assume a lot of money and I’m pretty sure when people if they ever give them
their debit cards or their Visa cards we’ll get those numbers correct they’ll
know how to make deposits into the bank they’ll know how to keep track of all
the hours of all their employees how many customers each one what services
are provided to each customer how much revenue was generated what percentage to
a decimal place is is for the owner versus the worker so I think people who
can do all of that including importing people into the country to provide these
services people who can do all that should be able to fill in a form for the
City of Toronto to see where their business address is so I see the the
issues as separate the concerns again that I’ve heard today about our
inspectors are very serious accusations I encourage councillor Wong Tam and
congratulate her for sitting down with our staff and bringing people together
and I’m sure all of us will and the share of this committee will to make
sure that all people in this city are treated with respect and dignity because
every person in the city reserves respect and dignity so if there are
accusations they need to be followed up and if in the end it’s I’ll call it an
urban legend that five people talk about the same incident but nobody can
actually find where that incident happened or who that was or what
happened then it’s very difficult for us to analyze but I think we should our
staff should be carriage dand I think they already are looking into these
matters and if there’s things they need to report back to us or if there are
things that are wrong they should be brought out to the full light of day for
all of all of us to see investigate discuss and resolve in a successful
matter thank thank you got some insight thank you through you I won’t be
supporting the motion to me it’s a real stretch to say that faulty paperwork is
is the issue in a language bear this is not an individual this isn’t supposed a
so special Association okay and I think that is is is key to this it’s a
professional association if they can’t get paperwork right how professional are
they the Auditor General’s report I believe it was was a little more
in-depth than what is being portrayed my other concern is that while issues of
being raised by by deputies I asked staff and through the mr.
Jeronimo and it was confirmed that these are two separate issues wrongdoing is
one thing whether there was wrongdoing or not these recommendations are a
totally separate issue and my biggest concern and I don’t
normally jump to the defensive staff I think they can largely take care of
themselves but my biggest concern is this allegation with all due respect of
some sort of harassment because people have been visited three times and the
assertion that nowhere else does this happen well I can I can tell you 20
people in Leaside who feel harassed because parking people come by three
times in a week or myself walking my dog through a park where there’s been a
complaint where there’s an issue staff come in for a week or two and there’s
heavy enforcement three four five six times a week so to say that it’s unusual
at these particular holistic centers if you will in my opinion is totally
baseless this is actually from Mike’s three-and-a-half years experience with
the city is what our bylaw people do they identify a problem and then there’s
a level of enforcement it’s not just a one-off it’s two three four five times
it could be walking your dog in the park or parking on the street Thank You Vice
Chair coach any thank you I do have two motions if staff can put them up
one is is asking city council request a federal and provincial government to
look at amalgamating the 37 professional holistic associations and self-regulate
them to form an association to oversee all others and the second motion is that
chair thank you and the second motion is that we ask the executive director to
report back by July the six on the feasibility of revoking the licences of
license what about partners and holistic centers in City of Toronto that have
bylaw charges and predictions in cured chair we’ve listened with great interest
to people to hear today giving us what is happening I have difficulty
fathoming the fact that that our staff is not professional I’ve seen the bylaw
officers and not all the time do I agree with them but a lot of times they’re
very professional they’re very curious and I want to thank Kristyn wong-tam
constantly one time for not allowing them to speak I really thank you really
appreciated I was curious when you were going at it
I want to thank our staff for the work that they’re doing I believe that some
of the allegations are very far-fetched the only thing that you have to do is go
in areas where we have these bodyrock partners go in the back and see what
kind of cars the owners of the body Rob parlour strive and see what the people
that work there under what conditions they’re there a lot of the I’ve been
advised that a lot of the individuals that work in those in those shops in
those premises are people that are come to Canada and they’re being trafficked
and the people that own those stores strive BMWs Mercedes Benz SUVs expensive
SUVs and they live in expensive homes well the people that work in those
locations live in two rooming houses and they’re in danger so I would say to you
and I want to thank the deputies for coming here today and really make the
presentations I would say to you that we need to deal with this and we need to
deal this and send the request and if it need be that we might even tell the
federal government to start and looking at
legalizing prostitution as they did with marijuana this is one of the challenges
that will it might they might have to face thank you Jeff
which of questions to the mover thank you consumer side through through you
mr. chair isn’t it putting the cart before the horse when we’re we’re well
with your second motion I actually agree but in terms of the feasibility of first
of all people on charges aren’t convicted but apart from that isn’t it
isn’t putting the cart before the horse before you know there’s still a lot of
work needed to be done by staff and to start revoking licenses midstream
wouldn’t that be a bad practice Thanks
I do have a question with regards to recommendation number three and yeah as
you’re asking that released city staff to report back on July the 6th at 17 now
is do we understand that this is the whole review is part of the bigger
picture overall that cities tab has to go out and consult and come back with
all the pieces so there is a lot of variables to the question there that I
had to fall into place and by telling city staff I’m not talking point that
won’t be possible it so my question to you is if we take the and the timing out
we’re still they’re still coming back with that report including what you are
asking for friendly amendment I became with it you are okay with that
so I’ll make that friendly amendment just take the date out all right okay
great other speakers if not I’m going to save yours it’s to me this is a it
sounds a DejaVu once again in 2011 and I’m going to refer
respectfully to one of the deputies here that’s Tim lamb Bree knows who was here
and this room was totally packed with more than 200 people and we were dealing
with exactly with the same situation excited with the same situation I wanted
to share with you cancer one time in a very friendly way is the problem was the
same we hear the same arguments over and over again from the industry from
everywhere and yes the remarks were all over that we are targeting minority
groups and that the city was biased and whatever else there were groups at that
point and that where I happen to speak Spanish being in Spanish groups as well
Spanish as well that we’re complaining Portuguese Brazilians from all over
so in my opinion there is no way or whatsoever that either the Auditor
General or our city staff is targeting anyone because of their background there
is in my opinion there is no such a thing they have done due diligence to
the highest degree and my hats off to them for doing that so it’s and I’m not
referring to and I think nothing has been said in terms of referring to the
legal business that they’re often offering the traditional medicine the
holistic wellness the shiatsu centers that we have out there that deal with
professional trained individuals are the world between nine and five and the
question here is cracking down on the unlicensed the illegal business that are
creating problems out there so in what we are saying what our communities are
saying and I’m saying it to you in a very respectful way is that for example
at the local level what my community saying is Caesar for God’s sakes
what are you doing and we are talking about the commercial strips and clear
with residential units northern service and Claire that are affected
tremendously by the level of negative impact that comes along with people that
frequent these locations and it’s not only whatever is happening behind the
scenes there but all the illegal aspects so we have locations that were there has
been a number of charges convictions and the question is what do we do next
so the problem continues to proliferate so I think what needs to be done is mi I
think that to simply to do what city council did City Council unanimously
I believe that endorsed the recommendations of the Auditor General
so in the recommendations of the Auditor General we’re very clear that we have
these these pH
is that somehow a part of the problem so what we are doing is pulling the brakes
on it now we are having a moratorium and to even opportunity to city staff to
just to go back and just to revisit one is to be done and to come back once
again and I’m sure that all the stakeholders are going to be part of the
discussion so this is not targeting anyone in terms of Anita sitting in any
way whatsoever and you know for that reason alone I will not be supporting
the recommendation from my dear colleague cancel one time because we
being added for too many years and I think that’s time to for us twist to
take this seriously and that’s one way of creating a healthy industries where
we really have to work with everyone and just to take one step further and a move
forward thank you so we we do have we do have some recommendations the first
recommendation is from the deputy mayor and Debra milke I have two motions I’d
like to move one is on behalf of council wrong time yeah which is the referral I
believe I again I personally won’t be supporting it but as a courtesy I think
you have done the same it says so we have oh I had I thought we were just
moving motions now okay because there is another motion just to ask the yeah
we’re talking we’re morning on those yeah if we can display please emotions just wanna anything its teacher yet you
didn’t speak to this this was no no this motion was not was not moved and we have
so so this one is is not in no no you
didn’t move castle was damaged but no I didn’t move yours in I spoke already so
we went through the speaking part so at this point you might be able maybe just
to move it at City Council it Sam and you know one one of the things that I’m
going to ask my famiry at this point I think that if the deputy mayor wants to
introduce a motion I think that we are very flexible from that perspective more
than glad to do that is point a point of order yes this is
out of order we spoke and this was not introduced we
didn’t have a chance to do it we finished speaking sir this cannot be
introduced is not is not okay it’s up to the committee to decide either to allow
it or not to allow so yeah that’s that’s that’s what I’m doing okay so so we have
the motion that I’m putting forward is I’m putting a motion forward that
so my motion that I’m putting forward to allow the deputy mayor development here
to introduce his motion at this point all those in favor okay now we have the
motion before us okay so now all those in favor or the motion that’s before us
or you have the developers yes yeah absolutely so this is that now this is
okay so this is on behalf of yeah all those in favor of the motion before
us now yeah did Farrow all those in favor of deferral recorded
vote against cancers burns I’ll divert may occur curry Janice in palacio and
then we have the next motions so so this is requesting that sitacles
request a federal and provincial government so okay
all those in favor against carries the next one is motion number three from can
circle Janice so on this one the day was taking out all those in favor against
carries and there is I believe another motion there this is yeah these the
deputy mayor’s yes I’m just going to ask a serious staff on this one in in terms
of the timing okay so we have this
motion all those in favor against it carries so we have another motion there
no no no yet so we have we have one more
motion number two from concessions number three now
just enough second no no we’re not done yet so we have the item now the item has
amended adopt as amended all those in favor against carry now in members of
council we have another motion that needs to be introduced that’s the one
that they spoke this morning that’s before you and the recommendations are
very clear on this one so I would like to move the recommendations all those in
favor against Carrie thank you and a motion to adjourn
thank you thank you everyone

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